Having read what’s available on this and some of the discussion here are some things to ponder:
To me, the IMB has been more open in laying out the facts and figures on this than they have in the past, perhaps because of the severity of the crisis I’d speculate. There are almost 100 trustees who will make the broad policy decisions and the way forward has a number of permutations and uncertainties. Are we to sit back and wait for some consensus or majority decisions before having all the facts and options available? I recognize the trustee role but it is not written that they must huddle in a room behind locked doors and hash this out until the vast number of stakeholders, SBC churches and members, see white smoke from the chimney and rejoice that a decision has been made and we will be soon be told what it is.
Best I can see, as of today there is no paradigm shift. It is business as usual, just leaner and more affordable.
The real estate sales intrigue me, partly because some SBC entities have had huge windfalls recently – namely, Golden Gate seminary and the Georgia Baptist Convention (indirectly though an earlier sale of the Georgia Baptist Hospital). In these cases the money was a boon and allowed the entities to make a change otherwise likely not possible (GGBTS) and a reset that cleared burdensome debt (GBC). The IMB just paid bills with the real estate sales and the money is gone. A cursory examination of financial reports of the IMB gave me a figure of over $161 million for the past four years.
Those who decry the paltry per capita giving to Lottie Moon and declare that we can do vastly better might consider reality. It is not a viable financial plan to presume on an annual increase of $10, $20, or $50 million more from Lottie Moon. The LM offering for 2003 was $21 million greater than the previous year and $3 million over an aggressive goal. That was then. We haven’t met a LM goal since 2006 and haven’t been within $20 million of the goal since 2007. The LMCO is the most successful and easily the largest offering the SBC has but one might speculate that the attitudes have shifted in the past 10-20 years. One thing for certain: IMB leadership is not willing to plan for the future with the presumption of greatly increased LM revenues, a wise decision. We could surprise them, though. Something I’d love to see.
Talk of any significant impact, either positive or negative, as a result of the Great Commission Resurgence and actions since is unfounded. You could crunch the numbers on how much additional revenue IMB receives through the Cooperative Program as a result of state conventions decreasing their “keep” of the CP dollar, not that this wasn’t a positive change in the CP. I just don’t see the bottom line being anything other than a marginal improvement for IMB.
Back to the real estate sales (and mostly unrelated to the current crisis), some of our missionaries were made wealthy in 19th Century China because real estate they personally bought skyrocketed in value. They cashed in. One of our missionaries, a co-worker of Lottie Moon, no longer needed FMB funding and eventually caused great problems. The financial independence might be seen to have contributed to the negative impact on the mission. If IMB is going to put great numbers of financially independent people on the fields one might wonder if the work will be balkanized and less unified that at present. Present IMB personnel are prohibited from earning money overseas. Proposals have been made to plug those who have overseas jobs into the equation. Just asking questions (and there are questions to be asked here). I don’t know the answers.
Clearly, some long-serving IMB personnel have concerns about the retirement incentive business. If voluntary retirements don’t yield the numbers required what will be next? Good question. I’m sure leadership has looked at the end game on this. Expenses must be reduced.
How magic is the 300 additional personnel IMB has committed to sending each year going forward? Will the preferred route to a balanced budget be to reduce the 300 rather than force personnel into retirement? It would seem that the former would be the better route, but let’s be optimistic that neither will be demanded. We will know by the end of the year, I suppose.
IMB has about one administrative employee per ten field missionaries. Some administrative staff, most stateside I presume, are compensated at a higher level than field personnel. I have no idea if the ratio of 1:10 is reasonable or excessive or if the ratio of field expenses to stateside expenses is normal or excessive.
No question about it. Any proposal to cut 1 of every 6 missionaries in order to balance the budget is severe.
There are thoughts on this that I haven’t had and salient points on it that I have undoubtedly missed. Perhaps the wisdom of the group will yield things that I and others need to know.
A back-up plan should the VRI fall short of a desire goal is for some IMB workers to consider whether they feel a calling to leave the organization in search of other fields of service. The FAQ refers to this. I’ll cite: Q: How will IMB handle additional personnel changes after the VRI? A: IMB leadership desires to first provide personnel an opportunity to voluntarily transition into work outside of the IMB. In addition, IMB leadership will evaluate the effects of the consolidation of Support Services and the recalibration of Mobilization, as well as any additional adjustments in Global Engagement… Read more »
Maybe I missed it or misread it but the goal of moving from 4800 to 4200 or 4000 used the numbers reported for those counted as “missionaries”. I don’t know if reductions in support staff or office workers were factored into the mssy RIF numbers…too many buzzwords in the Q&A for me to digest.
Great analysis, William. Just a few additional thoughts: 1. It will be telling to see how generous the “incentives” are. If they are high enough to motivate missionaries to retire—as if most missionaries were motivated purely by money—then the cost of the incentives themselves might be worth exploring, as a matter of stewardship. In a sense, such buyout dollars can be viewed as paying missionaries to *not* work any longer. Someone might characterize matters this way: “In a financial crisis, we are paying experienced, trained missionaries *even more money* to stop doing missions work on the field and come back… Read more »
1. This is a ‘can’t win’ situation. Personnel must be reduced. Makes sense to incentivize those close to retirement rather than sack a greater number of less paid, short-tenure people. Pick your poison. 2. Merger? Two different cultures. Two different models of support. Two almost completely different support needs. Question for another day but don’t count on my support for this. I fully accept that things are being discussed without either of us being notified (shocking!). 3. It may be that it is recognized that future finances are expected to be tighter than disclosed. Six months reserve is reasonable. If… Read more »
We have a four month pile. We don’t need a six month pile enough to cut staff by 20%.
Those “shocking” matters that IMB leaders are talking about without disclosing them to SBC messengers MAY fall under the heading of “hidden agenda.” I don’t know that and could never prove that—but that’s due to the nature of a hidden agenda. If there is truly a hidden agenda, we won’t know it. That’s why we have to ask a lot of questions…like 210 million of them!
Rick:
The organization normally holds about a 6-month reserve to account for all the unforeseen things that arise. When revenue from investment drops, or giving plummets, the reserve is our safety net.
Four months’ reserve has not been the standard; six months has been the mark to which we have held ourselves. Getting back to a six-month reserve is simply restoring that which we had and lost. It allows for greater long-term financial stability and flexibility.
Your insinuations if hidden agendas (conspiracy anyone?) notwithstanding, I believe that a 6 month reserve, or even more, is standard in institutions. I’ve never pastored a church with such a reserve, but I’m on our state admin and if all we had was a 6 month reserve we’d probably be a little jumpy.
You can call it a conspiracy if you want, Dave. I don’t use that word, but I just don’t care anymore. You are committed to making me sound like the guys in the movies with newspaper clippings on the wall. But weeks like this vindicate me. I have been saying that these leaders are not giving us all the information about what they are doing. They SEALED the GCR records for 15 years, keeping that hidden. They spent $210 million more than we brought in over six years, keeping that hidden. It is not “beyond the pale” to believe there… Read more »
No, Rick, because your premise is demonstrably FALSE. They are NOT hiding anything from you. The very (I hesitate to throw red meat to a lion) Calvinist leadership you decry is REVEALING the truth and is making plain what has been going on. Platt is the one who is being as forthright and transparent as any leader we’ve seen. 1) Someone showed us that this has not actually been as hidden as we have said – it’s been talked about, but perhaps we weren’t paying attention. I don’t know. 2) Platt broached the subject in Ohio. 3) Platt has laid… Read more »
David Platt and the Trustees at the IMB don’t hide anything more than Paige Patterson and the Trustees at SWBTS hide.
I’m still trying to understand why so many people feel blindsided by the deficit. How many years have we heard that CP and LMCO weren’t making it to the levels the IMB needed? I seem to remember hearing that for almost a decade. And while we’ve heard that, the general attitude has been to “keep on, keep the Board running” and the frustration has been about missionary numbers. We haven’t really asked about the money, we’ve asked about the number who are going. You can’t go 10 years of not making your fundraising goals and not be up a creek.… Read more »
Bingo, Doug. I’m afraid that the problem is just as much that WE haven’t been listening.
Doug, you knew the board ran at a 210 million dollar deficit the last 5 years and was selling property to make payroll? You shared that information with your church? How did you know this, because I would like to sign up for such information? Most of us who pay attention knew we were having problems but not to this extent. I am blindsided because I never heard 21 million until June and I never heard 210 million until last week. Hearing we have financial problems and are not reaching our CP and LMCO goals did not prepare me for… Read more »
A $210 million problem should never “sneak up” on Southern Baptists! This one did. We were listening. And we never heard $210 million. We never heard a 20% cut in missionaries was coming down the pike soon.
http://sbctoday.com/test-the-trustees/
It did not sneak up on me…I knew and I think you knew too, that Lottie was not meeting goal year after year and the the CP has been down as of late – common sense dictates that there is going to be a shortfall when this is happening – did I know it 210 million – no – but we all did know that they were spending more than they were getting in.
I will so that I ASSUMED they were adjusting thier spending – now we find out that they did not – they were using reserves.
So I guess we knew (or should have) and did not know at the same time.
We knew they were not meeting projections with income – Most of us did not know they were still spending as though they were.
“We knew they were not meeting projections with income – Most of us did not know they were still spending as though they were.”
Right. And that is where the rub is for me. I knew Lottie was not meeting goals. I did not know we were spending as if we were meeting goals. Therefore, I didn’t know we would be cutting 600-800 missionaries if revenue did not increase.
I would like to see discussions started about the feasibility and cost effectiveness of a consolidation between IMB and NAMB for a single missionary training, sending and funding entity.
In the past I’ve questioned In public about the apparent redundancies with regard to NAMB and state conventions, anyway.
What are the redundancies with NAMB and IMB? I’m not seeing a lot. You write it up for discussion. I see IMB losing in that marriage.
That’s a Lyle Lovitt/Julia Roberts marriage.
Guess my day is past…have no idea what this means though I recognize the individuals.
William T
Julie Roberts….pretty woman walking down the street, pretty woman the kind i’d like to meet, pretty woman…..
Lyle what’s his face….either a quarterback or wide receiver can’t remember which.
Just wanted to be of help William T.
Thinking of banning Dean for that mental image
Dave,
I second that motion …
Is Ted Danson/Whoopi Goldberg any better?
It may be worse, Dean.
much worse
“What are the redundancies with NAMB and IMB? I’m not seeing a lot. You write it up for discussion. I see IMB losing in that marriage.”
That’s not what I said, William.
I’m not sure that combining NAMB and IMB would be a good thing. I’m quite sure I will be a corpse before it is given any kind of serious discussion.
I agree with you there – I’ll probably be a corpse too – and I am MUCH younger than you! 🙂
A few really secular, skeptical thoughts: This is a real stinkin’ mess and, unfortunately, I don’t think we have gotten to the source of the pugnacious odor yet. Rick may well be right – a ‘hidden agenda’ is hidden somewhere. As someone said there’s too many buzzwords being employed. We’re looking really secular in dealing with this crisis. I certainly hope that those in charge have not written books on leadership or stewardship. It would be a little tough cracking open the cover of such a volume. I wonder how many of those sitting in our churches today are aware… Read more »
As was shown earlier, the only reason we weren’t aware wad because we weren’t listening. Someone linked to articles going back to 2008 and 2009 detailing the problems. That the problems were allowed to go untreated for 5 or 6 years is disconcerting. However, the attempt to act as if this is some kind of hidden agenda by the current admin is not unpredictable, but it is counterfactual. They’ve been the most forthright and transparent admin we’ve seen. The Platt admin has been a model of leadership – tackling what previous admins left to fester. Holding them accountable for making… Read more »
First, what was shown earlier was a report of a problem six years ago, and the mention by Platt of the annual deficit last year of $21M. What I am saying they neglected to share with us is covered under your statement, “That the problems were allowed to go untreated for 5 or 6 years is disconcerting.” Yes, it is their failure to report the total CUMULATIVE amount that I consider to be less than forthcoming. We only heard the $210 million figure this week. That’s my concern—the reporting of the $210 million. Second, in your final paragraph, you act… Read more »
And I would encourage you to read the IMB documents available. If there’s ever been a non-secular, God -focused approach to a problem like this, this is it. Your statement demonstrates that you’ve not read the IMB documents. Disagree with the approach? Fine. But to call it secular is just ignorant of the reality.
Followup: I asked our SS class (about a dozen) yesterday how many were aware of the situation with the IMB. Absolutely zero/nada. Interesting.
I don’t know what age group you have in your SS … but in the church I attend, most 20s-40s don’t even know what the acronyms IMB, NAMB, and CP stand for!
One area SBC church plant supports their own missionary teams by sending them to three foreign churches they have planted. They have fund raisers for direct funding of those teams and churches. It’s not clear if they give to the greater SBC work, other than minimal monthly support for the local association.
I just don’t accept that Baptists wouldn’t rise to the occasion if they were called upon. Maybe the message is being sent but it hasn’t gotten out. We’re talking about four or five dollars from each attendee in a sbc church this am to make up the difference. I know there are fundraising boundaries that agencies are supposed to keep but the IMB is unlike every other agency we have. Free Platt, trustees and anyone else to send appeals directly to churches. Where is Frank Page? Where is the convention president? Someone needs to step up as a leader and… Read more »
I suspect the IMB could get a bump of $10 million, maybe more (through Lottie, not the CP since only about 20 cents on a CP dollar gets to IMB). The deficits are several times that, annually. It’s not even a $21m deficit. That’s a net figure. The IMB had a $39m shortfall last year, $210m since 2010, over $40m per year.
I’m glad that you don’t accept that Baptists wouldn’t rise to the occasion but the IMB would be irresponsible to plan for the future on any expectation of greatly increasing, and sustained, levels of giving.
At this late hour the only recourse is to cut. My question is where has the call been? Why hasn’t a desperate call been sent out. I’m sitting here looking at SBC life spring and summer editions? Why wasn’t the headline “IMB to cut 800 missionaries if twenty million isn’t raised”? Why have I gone to the IMB site week after week and not seen the headline “800 IMB missionary positions to be cut if Lottie Moon offering goal not reached”? Someone has been asleep at the wheel when it comes to sounding the clarion call to imb funding. The… Read more »
I don’t know how desperate the calls have been, but that word has been out and has been largely ignored – perhaps because we are too distracted by our internecene bickerings?
That the matter hasn’t gotten attention from the SBC at large until now has to be a result of IMB not adequately communicating.
I pay pretty close attention to IMB stuff and had the impression that appointments were delayed or restricted, that the overall mssy number had been and is being reduced by attrition, and that budget cuts were coming. I had no idea that we were facing cuts in active personnel on the order of 1 of every 6-8.
Don’t know that it is profitable to spend a lot of time analyzing this part of the matter, though.
At this point, the only profitably in analyzing is to lean from mistakes and chart a better course. If the IMB is waiting on the WMU to come to the rescue they are making a strategic mistake. In my area wmu is not even functional in more than half our churches. I am not content that the answer is to cut numbers and hope for the best. The lack of any plan or proposals at all to increase revenues is unacceptable. The trustees and the administration can do better than that. Platt’s job is to provide leadership in strategy, find… Read more »
Tim, I wish I agreed with your assessment that we would rise to the occasion, but to this point, we have not. Many disdained the GCR, but the facts were in there – I thought that was one of the best parts of that. It showed how selfish we had become. People. Churches. All the way up the line. I’m not sure the clarion call that was given has really moved the needle that much.
Rick Patrick, I don’t always agree with you, though I usually do, but I appreciate your comments, questions, and ministry even though others obviously do not. You are an important part of the SBC today. Perhaps some should be more cautious about belittling those who have honest, tough questions about the IMB. Believe me, many more have the same concerns and questions. It should be remembered that most Baptists who are disrespected and disappointed with the answers, or lack thereof, will not be that vocal. They may not say anything. They will often just quietly go away and: 1. Reduce… Read more »
It seems to me that you are arguing that Rick should have carte blanche to level any charge he wishes but those who, like me, think he is both factually and attitudinally off-base should not be allowed to challenge him. David, it seems this is fairly one sided. Those who criticized Paige Patterson you have chastised in the past. That is NOT okay. As long as its the “other side” criticism should be protected? I’m not going back and forth. If Rick comes on here and gives his insinuations, insults and such, I do not believe he is immune from… Read more »
Placing tongue in cheek – to make a point. “I can’t believe those non Calvinist former presidents of the IMB allowed this to happen – they must have been dishonest people who were more intent on acquiring and maintaining power for themselves than they were in keeping The greatest international mission training and sending organization in the world solvent – obviously they did not support the cooperative program or missions and probably do not even love Jesus. Therefore I’m glad the Calvinist have taken over so they can right the ship!” I’m betting David B and Rick Patrick and others… Read more »
Dave, There has never been a “Calvinists are Racists” article at SBC Today. You must be referencing the article, “Is Calvinism Spiritual Racism” by Southern Baptist Pastor Dr. Michael Cox, in which he traces the determinism of three separate systems–Hinduism’s caste system socially, America’s system of slavery racially, and Calvinism’s salvation system spiritually–drawing the same parallels that many others have noticed historically. The common theme in all of them is that a person, before they are ever born, is placed in a specific category—some good and some bad—from which the system does not ever allow them to escape. They are… Read more »
I can tell you this. When you put a sensationalist title like that up – juxtaposing Calvinism and Racism in the title- I think the sledgehammer title overcomes any subtlety you might appeal to in the article The effect (trust me on this) was that Calvinists felt accused of racism. A click-bait title such as that is what communicates. It did not leave me thinking, “wow, this will edify and instruct so I need to devote time to digesting it’s deep meaning.” If you want deeper understanding perhaps a less offensive title might help. I glanced at the article, found… Read more »
We ought not hijack this post anymore. You have my email if you wish further discussion on the matter.
Dave/Rick
Getting old my brothers, getting old.
I really don’t want to get into this conversation, but your comment here proves that you do not fully understand Calvinism. I’m sorry. That was just a complete misrepresentation.
Tyler, Many Calvinists do indeed believe that, before the foundation of the world, God meticulously determined certain individual souls for salvation, while determining others for reprobation. The doctrine of irresistible grace means that, if chosen, the elect cannot say “no,” and the reprobate cannot say, “yes.” Calvin himself described these two groups while discussing Augustine’s position, and even admitted that the reprobate are born for the use of the elect: “Hence Augustine, having treated of the elect, and taught that their salvation reposes in the faithful custody of God so that none perishes, continues: The rest of mortal men who… Read more »
Rick got the last word.
This is NOT about Calvinism. We will NOT make it about that.
Back to the topic guys.
Gonna pretty much insist we not turn this post into another Calvinism food-fight. Thanks. Again, I realize I may have been the one who first said the dirty word, but it’s time to get back to the point.
Read the link David Rogers posted. Interesting stuff.
By the way Rick, Calvinist don’t believe people are placed in the category of either good or bad; they believe ALL men are placed in the category of bad…hence, amazing Grace.
Come on Rick!!
“What do SBC traditionalists and open theists have in common?”
“Is traditionalism the new pelegianism?”
See how click bait titles are destructive to unity?
There’s no way you would accept in a million years that a title such as the two I referenced above were not intended to place a negative connotation on traditionalists. Especially if the author went on to make the connection.
Come on, dude.
Your right Tarheel. But I got to say, I felt like the “Is Calvinism spiritual racism” article insulted my intelligence
Let’s let this go and go back to the topic.
Sorry Dave, will do.
It was my fault. I blazed the rabbit trail. I just think we should put a fence up and get back on the author’s path.
I agree it’s your fault – but OK I’ll leave it alone. 🙂
HI William, Here are seven (seven being the number of completion) ideas for increasing international mission funding (in no particular order) Contact associational missionary/mission teams and challenge them to challenge churches to increase their lottie moon offerings by 20% this year. Develop a strategy for an associational International/Home missions support team and resource them with contacts for furloughed & retired imbm’s, mission stories and news, needs, opportunities etc. These teams would be made available for wed night, sun night, brotherhood, & other mtgs. Personally meet with every association and challenge them to assemble such a team. (this would be very… Read more »
When I get to the church my OCD may overwhelm and I may bullet – point your 7 points.
I’m fine with your suggestions. The year round LM idea is one that I’ve thought about. I’m not sure if it would be a net positive…probably, with unintended consequences.
The IMB trustees were aware of the property sales. They must approve all property sales. I have spoken about the IMB financial crisis in many churches over the past several years. Only one church responded by giving more. Most responded with apathy. One layman spoke with me after the service. He said, what do you expect?things are tough all over. It seems that apathy is a bigger problem than ignorance of the financial crisis.
That’s not fair. To call churches who aren’t making their budgets apathetic because they don’t give more is beyond unfair.
They don’t have it to give. Do members, maybe; but to say the churches don’t care because they don’t have extra money is not a fair assessment.
Worth the read: https://www.facebook.com/notes/don-dent/satan-wins-big/111644475602197
David Rogers, thank you for this note. So much of what Bro. Don says in this note is exactly how I feel. A few thoughts: 1) It is true that some believe Dr. Platt can’t do anything right but others feel he can’t do anything wrong. I’m sorry but the brother showed an IMB logo with one arrow going to the world and then said we are now shooting for and showed a picture of the IMB logo and 5 arrows going to the world. I watched grown men swoon over his brilliance. No plans, no timetable, no cost analysis.… Read more »
Thanks for the comments, Dean. My purpose in posting the link, however, was not to accentuate the part regarding Platt’s comment (which I think we should leave to him to explain in context, and which I imagine he may do sometime soon), but rather the sad indifference and poor stewardship Southern Baptists as a whole have shown in recent years toward the priority of supporting career missionaries. Several of us have been saying for a while that the emphasis on short-term missions has cut into the funding of long-term missions. I believe we are now reaping the consequences of this.… Read more »
David, thank you for the reply. Anyone Who has interacted with you through the years knows that you deal with interpretations, issues and theologies and not personalities. This is why everyone respects you even if they were to disagree with you. I did not mean to imply in any way that my comments were yours or Bro Don’s thoughts. I thank you for the link and the rest are my thoughts.
Fair comments, Dean.
Dean,
I also agree. Good, fair comments.
David R. Brumbelow
My biggest issue is that SBs were not presented with the information, and then given an opportunity to respond. Perhaps we would not have been able to raise enough money to keep from asking long serving personnel to retire, but maybe we would have raised enough. Maybe SBs when given all the facts and a plea made would have risen to the occasion. I would have led the church I pastor to do our part and have little doubt that our people would have risen to the occasion. But we can’t do it alone. That’s the brilliance of a convention… Read more »
I see your Point Adam – but that’s just a one-time fix – the trajectory had to be changed and a whole new budgeting process implemented – or else they would be coming back to the churches to “step up to the plate” again in the near future.
It appears we have been on an unsustainable track and that has to be fundamentally changed.
I agree that it is only a one-time fix. I also agree that perhaps our missionary force needed to be reduced. But it could have been reduced more gradually without asking longtime personnel to make a quick decision about whether to retire if we had some immediate funds.
True dat!
Again, here’s the thing that is bothering me. Someone, somewhere, in one of these discussions, linked to several articles from 08, 09, etc, where we actually WERE warned about this. We WERE. And Mark Terry told in a comment somewhere how he has been telling churches about the problem and there has been a general lack of concern. I am not sure that the problem is as much that we haven’t been told as it is that in general, we (the SBC as a whole) just hasn’t been that concerned. It kills me to say that, but I’m beginning to… Read more »
David, the warning was clear. No one can say we didn’t know we were having financial problems. I attend the SBC on an annual basis. I read my IMB literature. I have missionaries come speak at a LMCO breakfast the first Sunday in Dec where we set out LMCO goal. They speak in that morning service. Not once have I come away with the idea we were going to retire 800 missionaries and have to sell assets to stay solvent. I am grateful Dr Platt has made us aware of how grave a situation this is. Until this week I… Read more »
Dave, to be transparent, when I have heard of our financial troubles my first thought was probably this is the result of waste by the IMB rather than no concern or selfishness on our part. It’s always easier to shift the blame to others.
Dean, I see your point. I wonder if the art presidents and the trustees were simply hoping things would soon get better and that just hasn’t happened – now it’s approaching a full blown crisis. In other words I think good intentions with bad implementation got us here. I don’t want to assign blame and certainly not nefarious intent – BUT Something’s gotta be done and it seems that no one is going to like what is done. This is what happens when we (or any business – I know we don’t like that term referring to our entities –… Read more »
Tarheel, it seems we arrived at this point because past leadership did not make the best decisions. Dr Platt is to be thanked for putting a plan in place now. Leadership requires doing what is unpopular. In time we will see if his decisions were the best.
Agreed. Very agreed.
Yeah, I can’t quarrel too much with that. I do not think that the problem was adequately highlighted. I want to put a positive spin on it – that the leadership was operating outof a heart to keep the most boots on the ground in this war, and a (perhaps misplaced) hope this would all work itself out. I don’t think there was intent to deceive as much as just an unwillingness to confront the realities of the situation. Either way, it was a failure. Platt is to be lauded for facing down the situation and dealing with it. Is… Read more »
Right. I posted the articles from previous years. I am not saying we weren’t told that more money was needed. I am saying we weren’t told, “Missionaries are coming home if we don’t raise X amount of dollars.” That resonates with people more than, “We need more money.” Don’t we all.
Adam, It is common sense that missionaries would be going home if we continue year after year – to not meet with actual income budget projections – I agree with Miller – there was and still is apparently an aversion to dealing with the realities of the situation and I am sure we can understand….who wants to be the one to say in an IMB meeting “fellas, our income is way down and we gotta cut missionaries”. It is a similar problem that many of us face at budget time in our churches. When income is down but the plans… Read more »
I also agree with Miller that it is a failure of leadership anyway you slice it – and now we have a president of the IMB who is willing to lead the charge to do what he and his staff think to be the right thing – even though it is painful, and unpopular.
Time will tell if they are doing the right thing…but doing nothing and continuing as normal is no longer an option.
Who is suggesting we continue as normal? All I said is that an immediate plea to the churches to take up an offering and prevent long-serving missionaries from being asked to prematurely retire seems to be a good alternative. I would have led our church to give. I have no doubt that we would give. If other churches did the same, we could reduce the number of missionaries in a more gradual way.
Can we say that “continuing as normal” probably left the building when they hired Platt. Whatever he does, it will likely not be normal.
Adam, our churches would both give….for sure….but aren’t we already? We are already on board we are sold on the CP and the IMB and such. Many, many other SBC churches and pastors are not. That is just the sad truth. Stepping up sounds good in theory…however realistically we cannot get state conventions to come off other pet projects and allocate more to the SBC – nor can we get churches to ante up even make 1% increases to the CP moving toward 10%. It seems the ante up option is a good sounding theory – but not all that… Read more »
I haven’t followed SBC Voices enough lately to understand the give and take between Dave and Rick but I agree we need to stay on topic. Don Dent’s face book post has touched a nerve with many of us who served and warned of this approaching tragedy for years. It would be good for those of you here to read it and maybe have a separate blog to comment on it. This has not been hidden but has been largely ignored. Back in the 90s we made a 10 percent reduction in Richmond Staff because of budget problems. We have… Read more »
I don’t know if David Platt has the right solution, Ron. But what we have to give him kudos for is the fact that he has come out and addressed this head on. He admitted the problem and he is trying to do something about it. It seems that at the very least it signals that problems will be managed now. Here’s my analogy. Platt may strike out, I don’t know. But he is up at the plate digging in and taking his cuts. He’s swinging and swinging hard. It seems that in the past, perhaps, they struck out looking,… Read more »
“We still have the best missionary force I am aware of but we need to move quickly before we lose it.”
Southern Baptists once had a great evangelistic missionary force, on both home and foreign fields. God blessed it.
I agree Dave. However, I am somewhat bothered by his statement on how we will measure our success by saying “IMB leadership wants the organization to move forward with innovative vision, aggressively exploring how to best mobilize, train and support limitless missionary teams from churches in North America and the nations to reach the unreached with the gospel.” There is nothing the matter with that statement but there is no mention of career missionaries being part of how we measure our success. I wonder what value he places on the role of the career missionary and our they part of… Read more »
I support our President and hope that he makes the right decisions. But, no, it does not seem that he places value on career missionaries. I hope and pray that it is not simply because he has never been in our shoes. That he has indeed not was a big concern for everyone. We are risking our lives, literally. I shared before that my daughter had a gun fired through her window a few days ago. This just depresses everyone. Not giving assurance that he understands that career missionaries who have spent years learning language, culture, preaching the gospel and… Read more »
I have jumped into this conversation late so perhaps my thoughts have already been expressed. Even if they not they are rather obvious observations, nothing profound. Perhaps however, the obvious is the best answer rather than the profound. At any rate: (1) I admittedly know little about the workings of IMB. However, the State conventions of which I have been a part, all had a glut of office and home based employees. NAMB historically has been the same IMO. There has been way to much money in these entities spent on “training” that was redundant and could have been done… Read more »
“churches’ not “chutes’….wish the machine would let me mis-spell words myself.
DL – you have touched on what I meant earlier in the thread by my comment regarding the “duplicateness” of NAMB and state conventions. Not just duplication though but NAMB doing and paying for what the churches and states should be doing. I mentioned that I’d like to see discussion started about having a single mission sending organization – primarily dealing with international missions (even relating to international missions happening within the United States) and having the state conventions deal with reaching their states and regions. In other words end the practices of sending money to NAMB to only have… Read more »
Tarheel
That seems to make a lot of sense. Another thing I would suggest is to use more Christian business men.I think the heads of the agencies should perhaps be preacher types, Platt is doing a good job. However I would like to see more business types involved in the agencies. There are a lot of Christian businessmen who could do a good job in management.
Metric – a unit of measure by which an organization or entity evaluates effectiveness; in the case of the church – ‘Are we making disciples as the GC commands?’ The Metric in the SBC has been and is numbers; how many (attendance) how much (offerings) membership (baptisms, which has been shown to be a fictitious number as reported). The present reality the IMB is facing is Exhibit ‘A’ as to the foolishness of maintaining this Metric. If the SBC repented of this deficient and lethal fallacy, focused on making disciples and held ourselves to honest transparent accountability, the deficit may… Read more »
“Traeger said budget shortfalls have been the result of revenue projections that exceeded actual income, including projections related to the Lottie Moon Christmas Offering.
Data reported in Baptist Press and Southern Baptist Convention Annuals indicates IMB budgets projected Lottie Moon revenue equivalent to the goal even when the previous year’s Lottie Moon revenue was millions less.”
http://bpnews.net/45383/platt-no-gospel-drawdown-despite-personnel-cuts
If the IMB is spending too freely, it’s not fair to blame it on the churches not giving enough.
And it’s not fair to say the churches don’t care enough about missions.
David R. Brumbelow
Yep, same problem lots of churches have – you don’t set up your spending budget based on wild projections – it should be set up based on actual income plus maybe a little bit but not wildly over income.
Spending year after year based on what you are overly hopeful coming in but never does is stupid and that’s exactly what they’ve done.
I am glad to see this discussion. The money has been short for a long time and the Admin did not know what to do. They have made some silly decisions in the past concerning money but no ones perfect so the ‘Cost Centers’ and Vancouver Training can be forgiven. The bigger problem is quite systemic. I am no longer ‘your’ missionary. I used to be. 20 years ago my wife and I were appointed and we were welcomed in many SBC churches who all celebrated us, declared us to be their ‘heroes’, and made us feel very uncomfortable. That… Read more »
Strider! My old sbcIMPACT coworker. David Rogers left a comment yesterday. If we could get Geoff to leave a comment we’d be back in business.
Strider said: “The problem? They give a few thousand to SBC and IMB and spend the rest on their own projects. The problem is not that we are poor and it is not that we are not missions minded. The problem as I see it is that we are no longer cooperating Baptists who work together. I want to be your missionary. I want us to be unified in reaching the world for Jesus.”
That gem was deep in his comment. I didn’t want you folks to miss that.
I noticed that gem too!
I, like many in this discussion, heard the news last week with great sadness. We can point fingers and blame people all we want, but at the end of the day we are here. I have heard many presidential candidates in recent days blame Obama, blame Bush, blame the GOP or the Democrats, but I have heard very little about how to proceed. I pray the SBC is wiser. I know two things – 1) We need to be sending more missionaries. 2) Sending takes money. My church will begin a final phase of a building program this year. What… Read more »
In the midst of this great discussion my secretary just handed me a packet we received today from the IMB. The information said our church reached the P’ingtu Challenge which represents a Lottie Moon per capita gift between $75-$99 per person based on average attendance size. Ours per capita gift was $85.52 for LMCO. In the light of last week’s information it will be easy for me to challenge our congregation to increase our giving by 14 dollars a person to reach The Manchuria Challenge, the highest level you can reach in the LMCO challenge. I would have been satisfied… Read more »
Bro Dean, our church also received an unexpected packet, we reached the Cartersville challenge. I’d never heard of it. . . or any of these challenges. I just challenged my church to give this year double what we gave last year. I committed to double my offering as well.
So, that’s two SBC churches redoubling efforts. Let’s pray for a widespread outpouring.
I too have committed to increasing my personal giving through Lottie Moon this year. It’s the only surefire way I know to make sure that our total LMCO offering is higher than it would have otherwise been. Individual Southern Baptists have to take responsibility. Individual churches have to take responsibility. And state conventions have to take responsibility as it relates to the CP. May this information motivate all of us to give more for the proclamation of the gospel to the ends of the earth.
OK..someone has got to be the one to ask…
Do we have an income problem or a spending problem? or both? Is there a need to take some hits so we can reorder our spending priorities or do we just simply need more money?
I think these are fair questions.
In the business world and revenue is an issue, you first cut expenses it is what you have the most control over. Then you raise revenue when and where you can. It sounds like the IMB is following standard practice now.
Right…that is what I am seeing too….gotta cut the expenses you have control over.
Since the missionary force is 80% of the budget – they have no choice but to start there.
Spending “expected income” that did not materialize year after year by using reserves is really bad practice and not one that God honors.
So far, at least from the press releases, the imb has not requested increased revenues. In fact, the position they have taken is that churches are already giving all they can give. Maybe they think someone else is supposed to raise the money and they are supposed to spend it and maybe that is the way it is supposed to be. If so, then a fire needs to be lit under the executive committee in Nashville. If they are resigned to letting the WMU do it then things aren’t going to get better. If they continue the strategy of depending… Read more »
I think the answer is yes, we have both. It started as an income problem as it began to taper off (for whatever reason). But it has morphed into a spending problem as giving has stayed down and spending has stayed up.
I can see (although I would not have done so) why past leadership did what they did to maintain spending. It has reached a tipping point now and must be fixed. No solution will be great and please everyone. I believe the current plan is one that best manages the long-term health of the IMB.
“I believe the current plan is one that best manages the long-term health of the IMB.”
Me too.
Strider I am disappointed that I did not know you were back in the states. My wife and I live in the adjacent city where you STASed last time and but we just left the states 2 weeks ago for a 5 month assignment back in our old field of service. That means we will probably not be able to sit down and share a cup of coffee together. I often visit the church you told me before you in-laws attend. We have all noticed the lack of interest in the churches hearing from missionaries. We are partly to blame.… Read more »
“They give about 41 or 42 percent of their cooperative program funds to the SBC”
That means that only 21% of CP giving in that state goes to the IMB. The CP is a terrible way to support the IMB in most states. It is better for churches to give directly to the IMB.
Well, I wouldn’t say it’s a terrible way. It’s half (actually a good bit less than half these days) of our dual cooperative/societal funding system for missions. We might dicker about the percentages but the SBC would be unrecognizable without the CP. The CP is a terrible way to attempt to generate additional revenues for missions. Anyone who understands the percentages like you do will see that for the IMB to have an additional $20M through the CP, churches would have to give an additional $100m or so. The math doesn’t work. Churches are well aware of the direct route,… Read more »
There was a SEVERE RECESSION in 2008-2009, and a very slow recovery since then. Why does nobody mention this in all of the analysis of IMB’s problems in these threads? Is there no connection at all between the WORST RECESSION IN 70 YEARS and financial problems at the IMB? Also, the U.S. Dollar was relatively weak over the last several years until it started going back up last summer, decreasing the IMB’s buying power in many foreign countries. The Cooperative Program itself suffered at its inception because of a severe recession. After the CP was started in 1925, the SBC… Read more »
What’s been said is that the recession cut severely into revenues. More importantly, it was finally recognized that the recovery hasn’t translated into increased giving to a significant extent.
Businesses downsized immediately. Local governments had to re-calibrate quickly as the tax digest declined severely with plummeting real estate values and revenues were correspondingly reduced. Naturally, the federal gummit just borrowed more from the Chinese. IMB rocked along until reality hit the other day.
Ron, I missed you again! What you said about the speaking invitations certainly goes for me as well. I have not even been able to speak once a month so far. I am about to get busier over the next couple of months fortunately but even when I speak I will be one voice among many contending for the hearts and pocketbooks of the churches. Sorry Jeff, I have become the crusty old missionary that I said I would not become. There was a recession but that has not stopped our constituency from buying 50 inch TVs, paying 100 plus… Read more »
I knew many people who were unemployed for a while during the recession. It is hard to give to missions if you are unemployed. Scolding people for buying big TVs is so 5 years ago; big TVs are relatively cheap now. Coming up with legalistic lists of stuff you think people shouldn’t buy isn’t going to persuade anybody to give any more than they are now.
I said I was sorry that I was grumpy. I am. My main point from my comment above though is that SB individuals and churches are giving plenty to missions, just not SBC missions. If we don’t realize the good deal we have- and I just spent a very nice evening with former colleagues from another agency who reaffirmed that the IMB is the best of the best and CP support is the very best method going- we could lose the whole deal.
Jeff, I can understand your reasoning but I disagree with it. For 32 years my salary and all support was through the FMB/IMB which meant I was supported by the cooperative program money given through the state conventions and the Lottie Moon Christmas offering. I could selfishly say I wish churches would only give directly through to the IMB and I would get more money. But in the long run that would have hurt us. I grew up in Arkansas in a Southern Baptist Church. I attended RA camp as a child and heard missionaries tell their stories was burdened… Read more »
I believe our SBC church folks know less about missions than in times past. When we came back to the USA for our final Stateside Assignment (furlough) in 2013, the IMB staff sent us a list of speaking opportunities in churches. The list was two pages long. When we were young missionaries (first furlough in 1980), the list of churches requesting a missionary was 20 pages long. The difference astounded me. In the 1980s during the Lottie Moon Christmas Offering season (November-December) I would speak 10-15 times in various churches. The past two years I have spoken twice each year.… Read more »
Mark, we can have an ongoing conversation about why missionaries speak less than in times past. I will begin the conversation by saying pastors seem to be more reluctant today than in the past in giving up their pulpits unless it is a well known individual speaking or they are going to be out of the pulpit. Also, SOME of our missionaries are great administrators and soul winners but poor public speakers. If a pastor gets burned a couple times, whether it be by a Gideon or an SBC missionary, with a poor communicator the pastor will be reluctant to… Read more »
Dean, I think those practical reasons are real and just about sum up the reasons missionaries (or no one else) is given the pulpit on Sunday mornings.
I am not sure I know what you mean by “spiritual reasons being the real reasons”?
Why aren’t SBC missionaries being invited to speak in churches like they used to be? A few thoughts. 1. It seems missionaries are sometimes more difficult to find because of security concerns. 2. Missionary short term trips. Some churches are likely to just use as speakers those in their church that went on a missionary trip. 3. Some feel a little disenfranchised with the new IMB and new SBC. The SBC has radically changed in the last 12 years or so. Some believe only those from certain circles are running things today and appointed to high positions. Some feel like… Read more »
I do think we as pastors need to regularly educate our folks about CP/Missions. When I served in Montana I found the church I served had dropped CP to a very small percentage. When I purposefully shared what we were doing as SBC and how we funded, I was able to move us to 10% in a few years, the Lottie Moon giving was more in the first year than the four previous combined. People give when they know why they are giving, who they are giving to, and the result of their giving.
Steve Young in Arkansas
My thoughts for some time have been the same as Deans’ and David’s and Steve’s. Remember the Great Commission Resurgence lead by Ronnie Floyd. The only thing I can remember it did was provide a way to call what ever you do for missions as Great Commission giving and de-emphasize CP, Lottie Moon and Annie Armstrong.