Trick question because there are no “SBC” pastors. The SBC (Executive Committee, seminaries, state convention, local associations) does not ordain clergy, Not one. Not ever. Thus, the “SBC” cannot revoke any individual’s ordination.
We all knew that, right?
Ordination is a bit of a scandal itself in the SBC. There are no standards, no requirements, no accepted practices, no training, no apprenticeship, nothing, nothing, nothing. As an obscure, old codger blogger once (or twice, or thrice) wrote, “some SBC churches would ordain a ham sandwich.”
It’s all about local church autonomy, of course, something that is a reality in SBC life regardless of the issue. Any local, individual church may ordain anyone they wish, in whatever manner they wish, and need not consult anyone about it, not even Jesus.
The combination of (1) the concept and teaching of ordination in the New Testament being a rather obscure and soft doctrine, it’s not described and prescribed directly at all, and. (2) our system of local churches ordaining for life and then the distinguished Reverends moving around from church to church make for some difficulty with the whole business of ordination as a standard practice
One of the abuse advocates asked recently if anyone had ever heard of an SBC minister being defrocked. I volunteered the single instance in my knowledge, and that lone example over about a half-century of being involved as an adult in SBC life and SBC churches.
The case was a pastor who left his wife and church for another woman. No dispute about the facts. Not really any desire by the adulterous pastor to maintain his credentials. The matter was presented, absent sordid details, to the ordaining church. A vote was taken. The ordination was revoked. That was that.
Perhaps you have examples.
There is really no system by which any association, state convention, or the national SBC; nor any seminary or other SBC entity; nor any SBC elected leader can initiate a move to revoke anyone’s ordination. The ordaining church only can do this. They could be threatened with expulsion but in all likelihood the offending pastor has long since left that church anyway.
A few humble suggestions about these serious matters:
1. Could the Executive Committee, the six seminaries as a group, compile and recommend best practices to the local churches about ordination. Who should be ordained. The biblical basis for the same. The actual practice of it. The importance of examination of the candidate. All those things that make it a serious matter. It’s depressing to hear a pastor say that his ordination was a joke.
2. I’m not seeing clear to have an SBC registry of ordained clergy. I don’t think it is possible to do this but if there is a workable plan, I’m open to being persuaded. I fear a registry would imply SBC approval.
3. There are some ordained clergy who should be defrocked, de-ordained, and probably flogged. A case of child abuse should include the ordaining church revoking ordination. I’ve presided over several ordinations. None of these individuals are in the same church, some are close by, others far away, still others out of the ministry. I’m long gone from being that church’s pastor but if I knew about an egregious case, I wouldn’t hesitate to call my former church and lay the matter before them.
4. In general, seems to me, not a lot of churches even care about a prospective pastor’s ordination. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe search committees vet this along with other things.
5. The idea of a process of restoration is a recent invention in SBC life. I never heard of any formal process whereby a fallen pastors submitted himself to a process of restoration. Not a bad idea as long as we make clear that some sins so damage the individual’s reputation that they should never return. Besides, we’re all independent actors anyway. We don’t have to submit to anyone for anything. If a fallen pastor can sell the next church on himself, that’s all that is needed.
6. Aha, ordination as a route to our sacred clergy government tax break, the minister’s housing allowance. Why should the state influence what we do about this? Yet it does and we happily participate in it.
Mark Terry wrote recently about revoking ordination. A distinguished professor, he has much more to say than I, and he wants a database. I’m not there yet, but persuade me, Doc.
This is a perpetual topic in SBC life:
The ordination scandal in the SBC
Above reproach: A study of the ordination practices of SBC churches (Jason Lowe). Lowe compiles data, self-selected respondents, not the best way to understand exactly where the SBC is on this but very valuable nonetheless.
Some (Jimmy Scroggins) don’t believe in transferable ordinations. I don’t see this position as ever prevailing in the SBC where a pastor may serve dozens of individual churches (though most probably serve just a handful).
Who is an approved, certified, qualified, recommended, ordained SBC minister? Anyone, or no one.
LifeWay Research has a new survey of attitudes towards adulterous pastors: Pastors Split Over Ministry Return Time Frame for Pastors Who Commit Adultery. Read it. One in 50 pastors say “not at all,” that is, adultery today back in the pulpit tomorrow. Only 27% declare the adulterous pastor to have disqualified himself.
If nothing else works, your ordination is revoked and you can’t get it back you can always start your own church. You approve of yourself, right? Who else is needed? Come to think of it, this might be the underlying problem.
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I didn’t approach celebrity pastors and church leaders. They are not like you and me. Get a $10 million settlement and say ‘ see ya!’ What a messed up church world we have these days.
I know of two pastors who went thru formal restoration. The individual SBC churches are both autonomous and cannot be divorced from the SBC. As result what is endorsed by the SBC church is SBC.
Any church can be divorced by the local Association, the State Convention and the SBC if the will is there to do it.
Exactly what was “ endorsed” by the SBC?
When a church ordains a man, it means that church approves him.
When another church calls him, it means that church approves him.
Its that simple. Baptist churches are autonomous and not subject to the rule of others. Which is the best way for churches to function.
Do some abuse the process? Of course, and they will have to answer for their own actions. Autonomy = Accountability.It is between that local church and God, just as an individual is accountable to God.
1 Corinthians 7:9. Hebrews 13:4. Mathew 19:9. In my research and philosophy, most married couple do not want to divorce and some people do not want to marry. Pastors and bible teachers are preaching and teaching a bout adultery and divorce, saying they hate the divorce. But the divorce percentage in Christianity and America is very high compare to other non-Christians countries. Q 1: Why ? For example: Anonymous some local authorities,church pastors and deacons have committed adultery with another man’s wife for years. As result, a man feel very frustrates and dangerous and secretly divorces his wife and married… Read more »
I think Mark Terry’s database would be useful as a tool for churches looking to hire a pastor. I would be in favor of an SBC accrediting role in ordination. It would not keep a local church from ordaining a worthy candidate or a ham sandwich but it would allow the pastor to show that they have been through a formal process and would also allow the accreditation to be revoked. A database would list all approved candidates and all revoked.
I once wrote a long post about this topic and have chimed in on comments from time to time whenever it has come up here at SBC Voices. My position is that the tradition of ordination as practiced in SBC churches does not have a biblical foundation to begin with, and that is the root of the problem. In the NT, there was no such thing as “at-large” ordination, or recognition of ministries outside of a specific appointment to a ministry position within a local church or of missionary appointment (i.e. being sent out from a local church to plant… Read more »
In 50 years of SBC life and ministry, I have never heard this position. Does any other denomination re-ordain a pastor at every change of ministry?
I acknowledge this is not a fair comparison, but the first thing I thought of was this: every time a couple moves into a new home or town they should have another wedding. And make sure the officiant is current on ordination for that location!
Following the analogy, I would say that people should have a new wedding whenever they marry a new spouse. Pastors are pastors of the local church where they serve, not of the church at large.
Yes, pastors are pastors of the local church. But I was ordained to the Gospel ministry, not to a local pastorate. In fact, I was called as pastor to a church before I was ordained. My home pastor contacted me and talked to me about ordination. I was then ordained by my home church about two months after becoming a pastor in another city. I was no longer a member of my home church, yet the entire council (a number of local pastors and the Director of Missions, most of whom had known me for years) considered the process to… Read more »
The corollary to my understanding of NT ecclesiology is that the default plan was for local churches (or church planters) to appoint elders/pastors from within their own congregation. While men may have moved from one town to another for a variety of reasons, and then joined the church in that locality,, it was not standard practice for churches to look for elders/pastors who were not already members of their congregation. Now I will concede that is quite different from the way we do things today, and to try to change it would be pretty revolutionary. But that doesn’t take away… Read more »
I believe your understanding is absolutely correct. Could be because it is what I’ve always believed.
David, you are absolutely tearing it up in these comments. I appreciate your firm emphasis on keeping our ecclesiology biblical.
I am a Baptist of the non-Southern variety, and served as a pastor for 40 years. However, like C. H. Spurgeon, I was never ordained because I would rather have others wonder why I was not ordained than wonder why I was!
I do not feel that you can truly regulate ordination within the SBC for two reasons: (1) ordination is truly a local church issue and (2) the SBC is not a typical “denomination” in the sense it doesn’t “trickle down.” Its authority flows up from the local church. However, as the SBC Constitution does have standards of membership, including contribution standards as well as a church demonstrating “a faith and practice which closely identifies with the Convention’s adopted statement of faith. (By way of example, churches which act to affirm, approve, or endorse homosexual behavior would be deemed not to… Read more »
It would be unheard of to do that. More later
Great questions. The churches ARE independent and autonomous. Already. And there is no method of making them not. There is no eminent domain that the denomination may exercise. So, churches may ordain – or not. And people may serve in those churches. Ordained or not. Most of our churches would revoke ordination if they knew of the facts warrantying that. As you have stated, the bad stuff happens years later, and no one is goin to go back and tell the ordaining church, assuming it’s still around. What we need IMO is to recommend a system for service in the… Read more »
As William writes, I do favor a national SBC list of pastors and staff members who have been convicted of sexual abuse and financial crimes in churches. As I understand the objections, some say that such a list would leave the SBC open to expensive lawsuits. I can see that if the list included those “credibly accused;” however, convictions are matters of public record. The Houston Chronicle published such a list, and you can be sure the newspaper’s attorneys approved that action. The second objection is that such a list would almost certainly be incomplete. I respond that something is… Read more »
I’m sure someone mentioned this earlier, but what about some sort of certification/seal of approval? Without any requirement to obtain it or to hire those who have it but increasing the ‘hireability’ of those who do have it. Along with this, SBC coordinators could help those who are certified find churches in need of a pastor, while telling noncertified inquirers only how to pursue certification.
Like I tell my students, you anticipate me. I plan to write a post on this next week.
That’s been proposed before. As you lay it out, it would be de facto SBC approval (and disapproval). If some SBC body, entity, or appointed group does the certification I’d see the same problems. Seminaries can make requirements for degrees. Churches and entities can set requirements for employment.
Not a bad idea at all. It would enhance the value of degreed, trained clergy like a guild. I’m not seeing past the gatekeeper concept. But I’m open to thoughts I’ve never had on the matter.
My ordination lasted two and half hours. I had two hours of questioning. I had to satisfy three churches of my calling before the ordination. My character and my wife’s character were thoroughly checked. My home church was a tiny mountain church but those folks did it right. I didn’t sleep very well a month before the ordination worrying I would get a question wrong in front of three churches. I was asked if I failed to live up to my calling would I voluntarily return my ordination certificate to my home church or a church I’m a member of.… Read more »