Trump’s plan for the forced mass deportation of 11 million undocumented immigrants and their 5 million U.S. citizen children is to forcibly deport 25,000 people per day for 18-24 months at the beginning of his administration, which would necessitate the suspension of Due Process (Constitutionally guaranteed even to those here illegally), would cost approximately $600 Billion, and would have a net economic impact of over $2 Trillion over 20 years. I wrote about this plan in detail last September and explained the historical significance and cost of this.
The Trail of Tears involved forced removal of 40,000 Creek and Cherokee Indians over approximately 10 years, just for historical reference, and is considered a blight on American history. Families would be divided and parents removed from children. Hundreds of thousands of children would be thrown into the foster care system as they are U.S. citizens because they were born here, but their parents will be removed. Many parents will leave their children behind because for many to return to where they are from, it would be a death sentence. Millions of the 11 million undocumented have been here for years. Millions were brought here as children without their own consent and they have no real memory of their home country. Communities will be torn apart. Churches emptied. Families disbanded. Children orphaned. The cost to tax payers will be in he hundreds of billions. The cost to our nation morally and socially will be unfathomable.
If you vote for Trump because you think he is the lesser of evils, I understand and recognize that many are in a real dilemma. But, what will you do when forced mass immigration happens? Will you stand by as a newly formed, weaponized immigration police force rolls through your community in raids in the middle of the night to clear out neighborhoods and pull parents away from screaming children? This is not sensationalism. This happens now. It happened in January in Atlanta. I spoke to people who had first hand knowledge of the ICE raids going after the families of those who came last year as migrants from Central America and missed their court dates, often because they did not speak English and had no idea what was required of them. In the middle of the night, armed ICE agents broke through their doors and pulled them out and off to detention and deportation. The numbers affected across the country were a few hundred. What if that happens with 25,000 per day all over the country? Because that is what it will take to complete Trump’s forced mass deportation plan.
If you have to vote for Trump, then what is your responsibility to oppose some of his actions? Will you take on his beliefs about what to do about undocumented immigrants? Will you also support forced mass deportation of millions of people – many who have been here for years and were either brought here against their will as small children or have citizen children who were born here? If you are against this, are you prepared to advocate for immigrants and stand with them when the deportation forces come for them? These are real questions for us now. This is the dilemma that we are in.
If you are a follower of Christ during this time in history, what will you do?
Thank you for describing a side of the immigration debate that some may not have considered. I am not sure how the comments will be on this post but it took courage to write this and I want to thank you for doing so. It was a game changer for me when I saw how many references there are to immigration and immigrant care in the Bible. I pray the church looks at this issue from a biblical and not just a political lens.
I will go on record right now and say I will not stand silently and idly by if this occurs. As Casper Ten Boom is quoted as saying in The Hiding Place, “I will open my door to any in need.” My friends in the immigrant community can count on me and my family to peacefully but actively resist such a policy. To do less, would be a violation of my faith.
Thanks for this Alan.
So you are actively working against ICE to harbor Illegal Immigrants? If not, then why not? There are (though not in the millions) people actually being deported from this country. Are you really saying anyone (regardless of how they entered this country) deserve to be hidden from authorities? There are laws on the books already. I don’t think you are really saying you would be doing this, though I will let you answer.
Or, are you just incensed that Trump would speak about actually doing it across the board and not looking the other way?
There are reasons for deportation. Fear and hatred are not two of them. The threat of mass deportation of 11M people at the cost of breaking up families and without considering the circumstances of what caused a person to be here illegally is immoral. It is also a violation of the biblical principle of hospitality. I would hope to not have to be in the position of harboring illegal immigrants, but if they are being treated unfairly and deported without due process, then I would do what is necessary. The causes of people being here illegally are more than just… Read more »
The notion that any President can simply do what they want is where Congress, and the States, are supposed to step in and prove there is a Separation of Powers. Oh, wait! We are talking about a potential Trump presidency and not actually condemning the current president or his predecessor for taking Executive Action WAY outside the boundaries of Constitutionality. However, Trump stumping on the campaign trail and what will take place are entirely two different things. The issue is however: Should ILLEGAL Immigrants be deported. You are free to answer no, but most people would say ILLEGAL Immigrants have… Read more »
Also, Obama has deported almost 3 million people during his presidency, more than any other president. Border security is stronger than ever and more people are apprehended at the border. We pay Mexico in the tens of millions each year to help shut down their Southern Border. The ICE raids happening now targeting Central Americans are being used to send a message to those suffering in the drug wars in Central America that they should not come here. Obama has been called the “Deporter in Chief” by immigrant activists. Republicans refused to work with him and say that he is… Read more »
If you vote for Trump after he has clearly announced his intentions then you are affirming those actions.
Alan: Thank you for writing this post and asking if evangelicals will support what you have summarized as “Trump’s plan for the forced mass deportation of 11 million undocumented immigrants and their 5 million U.S. citizen children”, which you say will forcibly deport 25,000 people per day for 18-24 months at the beginning of his administration. I did not vote for Trump in the primary, but it looks increasingly as though I will in the general election. I will either watch or read about the debates, and I will continue to watch what the candidates promise to do if elected.… Read more »
Amen to what Louis said.
I’m all for LEGAL immigration.
David
Vol,
Can I ask you a question in regards to your statement?
How do you feel about companies who being people to the US on work visas and then pay them low wages such that at the expiring of their work visas the people who came legally to work for these companies then do not have enough money to get back to their home countries?
That is the situation that many of these 11M people Trump is wanting to deport find themselves in.
abs, I would be all for making those 11 million go thru the process. Give them work visas, right now, or whatever else they need, so that they can go thru the legal means of becoming a US citizen. Maybe, that way, we can send home the criminals, who’ve come into our country. And, we can keep the people, who are not criminals. But, I’m all for building the wall, and doing what it takes to strengthen our borders. We do need to make sure that the people of our country are being taken care and protected. It’s the same… Read more »
David Worley,
I am in almost complete agreement with all that you have said. That is the position that I work from. I am not super excited about a wall because I don’t think it will solve the problem and it will create more problems, but if getting a wall would ensure that solved the other problems, that would make sense. As for the pathway to legal status, that is the solution for all of this.
Sounds to me like Russell Moore has passed the torch to Alan Cross.
Sounds to me like both men take seriously the command to take care of the sojourner or foreigner written multiple times in the Bible.
Louis, see my thoughts on that point. I have tried to logically think through that. I have a hard time taking those references and applying them to the modern situation. I think those commands are basically to treat foreigners fairly, as you would locals. I do not think that those passages can be fairly said to address 21st century immigration policy, especially given the complications of the welfare state and national security. Of course we know the Israelites also slaughtered the foreigners whose land they came to occupy (which is really much more like the Trail of Tears), and they… Read more »
I, like many others, have had the same thoughts that Alan has expressed well before Russell Moore became popular.
Tyler, I do not think Russell Moore is popular with the membership who generally are unaware of him, his political activity and his position or even the ERLC. When Moore’s viewpoints and positions become known to the general SBC membership he will not be popular. The majority of SBC will vote for Trump so just like the establishment GOP and Dems the leadership is out of touch or does not represent it members. If Russell Moore wants to get his message out spend 2 months visiting under 500 membership SBC churches with his message and get real feedback not Brentwood… Read more »
Man, we must know two very different groups of Southern Baptists. I think I can only think of one member at my church who is considering voting for Trump.
Tyler, where is your church?
Alan: I went to Trump’s website to read his immigration plan. It can be found here: https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/immigration-reform I did not find anywhere in the plan the type of deportation effort that you have mentioned. I have heard Trump pressed by reporters and such saying that his plan would require the “rounding up of 11 million people”, to which Trump has said “They have to go back.” And then he adds things about reapplying for entry etc. But here is what the Trump plan says: First, it has what he calls “3 core principles”. They are: 1. A nation without borders… Read more »
Read the post I linked, Louis. His written plan is different from what he has told people. I explored this in depth last September. And, as an editor here at SBCVoices, I will take the liberty to say that if your comment is much longer than the original post, you should probably try to edit down and comment on the post instead of writing your own. This is not a debate on immigration. I am asking what you will do when Trump tries to enact his plan of forced mass deportation? Will you cheer it on? I am all for… Read more »
Alan, this is no legal term undocumented immigrant, if you are here without going though lawful immigration you are by definition an illegal alien. There is no such thing as an illegal immigrant, an undocumented immigrant or unregistered American. These are all terms the press and advocates of cheap illegal alien labor, Mexican government and liberal US government programs use to deflect the issue to one of emotion and caring. You have not correctly stated Trump’s position and as noted it is a proposal that has to be approved by Congress and comprised on. Why the SBC has been so… Read more »
Illegal Alien. Fine. We can use the legal term. I use the term for people that still recognizes that they are people made in God’s image and are not illegal in their being. That makes more sense theologically, but whatever you think is best – go for it. Yes, how we TREAT immigrants, whether the they are here legally or not, is related to our salvation and how we understand it. There is a huge Biblical teaching on it. No, America is not Israel. I am speaking about Christians and the church. Mass forced deportation IS NOT the law. It… Read more »
Sorry. 75% oppose mass forced deportation. I was thinking of another poll.
Alan, so are you in favor of Sanctuary Cities? If not, then why not. The notion there will be no “due process” is a cover for folks who simply don’t believe ILLEGAL Immigrants have done anything ILLEGAL. Is your house open to Illegals Alan? If not, then why not. Yet you want the nation’s “house” to be open to them. Why aren’t you harboring them? Again, this is what Sanctuary Cities are doing. To equate Deportation of ILLEGALS with the Trail of Tears is a Straw-Man of Biblical Proportions. Why then are we Imprisoning people who commit crimes (ILLEGAL Activity).… Read more »
Almost everything that you said is factually wrong, except for the part about houses having locks or something. I mean, you neither intersected with the substance of my post nor did you present things are accurate. You just presented anti-immigration reform rhetoric. The facts are that not all of the 11 million are here for the same reason, due process is meant to sort that out, it would have to be abandoned to do what Trump requires, being here illegally is not a felony – it is a misdemeanor, undocumented immigrants have a net positive economic impact across the board,… Read more »
Alan, I did interact with your post and the Trail of Tears reference is where you lost any credibility with me. Again, as I said to someone else: The notion that any President can simply do what they want is where Congress, and the States, are supposed to step in and prove there is a Separation of Powers. Oh, wait! We are talking about a potential Trump presidency and not actually condemning the current president or his predecessor for taking Executive Action WAY outside the boundaries of Constitutionality. However, Trump stumping on the campaign trail and what will take place… Read more »
Nate, you don’t understand immigration law or what is actually happening. It is a misdemeanor. Being here illegally is not a deportable offense. That might shock you, but it is true. If you want to adhere to the rule of law, then that is the law. Now, if you disagree with the the law and want to change it, that is your right as an American, but don’t say that you are supporting the law. You are adding to it. Immigrants are only deported when they commit another crime, and even then, they have due process. Because the law says… Read more »
And the Trail of Tears analogy was meant to draw comparison to forced migration and the sheer numbers. I recognize that the situation is different.
Alan,
“Having entered the United States without permission” meets the grounds of inadmissibility, found in Section 212(a) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (I.N.A.). These grounds of inadmissibility are sufficient for an order of “removal”. Everyone is allowed a lawyer and a hearing. This will not change.
Donald
Alan, On one hand I think you ask a very good question about the practical negotiation of returning to legally controlled borders once again. Trump, I believe, has overcast the plan on purpose so that a negotiation of terms can be in order when Congress takes up the issue to instrument a bill in the future. I think he is wise in doing so. It is risky politically, but does give him room for walk back. On the other hand,…The bible seems to be clear that to control a nation’s border, and to respect the borders of other nations, is… Read more »
Chris, I do not disagree. But, there is far more to this than just an illegal immigrant being a delinquent teenager. Many should be deported. But, for many others, there are extenuating circumstances that should be considered.
A process and pathway to legal status would address all of this in a way that combines Justice and mercy. But, that does not stir up the masses in the same way that Trump’s rhetoric has. Immigration law is far different than people think.
And I am all for secure borders and respecting the rule of law.
Alan, I was not thinking of the illegal alien as the “delinquent teenager”. I was describing our leaders in government as the “teenager”. Illegal immigrants have been allowed to break the law, and thus are now in the cross hairs of remediation…. of the immigration laws that have been ignored for decades. I do think that Trump’s rhetoric is for one purpose….and is not the reality of what will happen even if he is elected President, since congress is the place where any plan is forged. Unfortunately Congress has ignored the illegal practices of folks coming into the country for… Read more »
Alan, Thanks for the reminder about long comments. I will try to do better. I did read the post you linked. It’s like many of the things Trump says, as I said in my comment. Of course I would not support mass deportations with no due process. But I do not take that kind of blather seriously. It plays to some people, and Trump throws it out there as red meat and to stir up chatter. I do take Trump’s immigration plan on his website (as opposed to a conference call with some “Alabama Leaders”) seriously. It is not really… Read more »
Louis, I used the young man as an example to remind us that we are talking about people here and not just numbers. I am glad that you would not support such a plan. Trump has stated this plan over and over again, by the way, to crowds of thousands. It is how he won much of his support. Build a Wall and Deport them All – not necessarily a rallying cry, but definitely the sentiment. I am glad that if it came to what Trump said that you would oppose this policy. By the way, I think it is… Read more »
Alan:
Thanks for the kind words. And I respect you, as well, for your position.
I understood your reference. A personal example always makes one pause. As I said, I know some, as well.
It’s two issues.
Secure the border first with meaningful and measureable legislative standards of achievements (or triggers) which must be met within a certain time period ….THEN we as a nation through our elected representatives can debate, discuss and then enact appropriate legislation to deal justly (as we are a both a compassionate people and a nation of laws) with those who are here illegally.
I agree with this, however securing the border is such a moving target that we really do need to define what that means. Border Patrol has already stated that they have operational control. If a secured border means no illegal crossings ever, that has been deemed impossible. A wall will not solve that either. But, if we can identify realistic goals for what border security is that satisfies all sides, then that makes sense. Border security also involves interior enforcement and identifying legitimate targets for deportation and then apprehending them. As for legal status, there are millions here already who… Read more »
I still remember the picture of the automatic weapons and a very terrified kid named Elian Gonzalez from the Clinton years. I would hope to find a way to oppose the type of deportation that Alan envisions Trump doing. I doubt that will actually be the way it goes down–but if it is, it’s not the right way to enforce that law. And yes, so that whoever would like to label me a liberal may, my view is that there needs to be a firmly secured border that blocks illegal immigration and an amnesty program for those already here. That… Read more »
“Will you also support forced mass deportation of millions of people – many who have been here for years and were either brought here against their will as small children or have citizen children who were born here?”
No. For several reasons – one being that I think it would be incredibly cruel to have a policy like he’s articulated – also there’s the fact that his plan is impractical politically, financially and procedurally – add to that – I just don’t think he serious about doing it. It’s bluster, IMO.
The reason we are having this discussion is due to economic and social disparity across various nations. If hypothetically all nations had “equivalent” wage structures and people lived in societies free of corruption and grinding poverty then the immigration problem would not be happening. It will take some time but immigration will eventually sort itself out. Namely, we will reach a point where people will increasingly “self-deport” and/or “stop coming.” As many of you know this is already happening. During certain recent fiscal years more people — who are illegal — have left the USA than have entered. Of course… Read more »
Flash!! As many of you have probably already seen on the news: There will be one more “immigrant” coming to the USA: none other than El Chapo.
My guess is he will have a private room at a lodge near the Rocky Mountains in Southern Colorado.
It may be a few months / years before El Chapo’s paperwork is in order to come to the USA. Once he comes he is likely to remain a permanent resident.
Like Alan, I would like to see what people mean by “secure the border”. Stopping all illegal crossing is impossible. A wall is ridiculous and wouldn’t work. This is America for crying out loud, not East Germany. (yes, I know the Berlin wall was meant to keep people in, not out) Do you mean doubling border agents? Something else? If you are going to say “first secure the border”, then that has to mean something other than wrapping America in cling film. I don’t disagree with securing the border, but honestly don’t know what that means beyond what we are… Read more »
Bill,
I would imagine that by “secure the border” most people mean, to the best of our ability, no person crosses that border into the US without the permission of the US Government. I do not think that we will do what it would take to reach anywhere near 100% border security. I do not think we want to do what it would take.
I am not sure why you think a wall is unbuildable. One can argue on the wisdom, but I guarantee that if we choose to build such a wall it is possible to do so.
Donald
No, I don’t think a wall is unbuildable. I just don’t think it will happen, nor will it have the desired effect if it did happen.
My biggest concern in this is that Trump seems to have zero compassion or concern about anyone. Not even those who will vote for him, or who want this big wall. That leads to ways of dealing with issues that are strong arm and bullying, which leads to mistreatment and even death of these illegals. To have such a mass exodus such as Alan has described, the end result would end badly. You all do realize that Alan works in this area of ministry and therefore knows more facts than any of you do. If he’s concerned, that is reason… Read more »
I just don’t see how Christian men and women can be so anti-abortion as they claim, yet think this kind of a plan is ok.
Is the United States a nation governed by rule of law, or not? I think most reasonable Americans, including evangelical Christians would say yes. Is there an issue with the immigration laws of our nation? That interesting question is often answered with a yes and yet most people doing so cannot articulate what specifically is wrong with current immigration law. Somehow law abiding citizens who advocate the enforcement of existing law are framed as villains while those have already violated American laws are framed as victims. Over 1.2 million people (and rising) are immigrating legally to the United States each… Read more »
Christopher, thank you for you excellent question.
Christopher: I think the article says a lot about the inhumanity of how the law is being carried out.
Let me ask you and steve s a question. Alan writes:
“Will you stand by as a newly formed, weaponized immigration police force rolls through your community in raids in the middle of the night to clear out neighborhoods and pull parents away from screaming children? This is not sensationalism. This happens now. It happened in January in Atlanta. ”
Is this ok with you?
No. Illegal Immigration is down from its height in 2007, more Mexicans are leaving than coming, and Obama has deported more people than any president in American history and the Far Left has attacked him repeatedly for it, calling him the “Deporter in Chief.” So, none of your facts are actually correct. Also, immigration law is a confusing contradictory mess. I am against illegal immigration and am for secure borders and the rule of law. However, I also look at the situation as it is and recognize that there is a human element that should be considered and that there… Read more »
Debbi,
Amen!!!
Dwight: So glad you and Alan are a voice for the voiceless.
Alan,
Great article, man. I’m so encouraged that more and more evangelicals (especially Southern Baptists) are starting to think along these lines.
Alan – respect fully – your comment about illegally crossing the border into the United States “being a misdemeanor “and “not some terrible crime” – there are lots of things that many of us would consider serious crimes that are “simply misdemeanors” by legal code. Here’s some examples for North Carolina: http://www.nccourts.org/Courts/CRS/Councils/spac/Documents/App-m09.pdf I understand what you’re trying to do – and I agree with you on much of it – especially the compassion part – but your trying to minimize the crime of one illegally infiltrating a country – which is exactly what we’re talking about – is not really… Read more »
I am not trying to minimize it. I am saying what it is. A misdemeanor is still a crime and it is still a problem. I believe in secure borders and the rule of law. I have never wavered from that. My point involves how you deal with it. There are different sentencing guidelines and consequences for different degrees of lawbreaking. Misdemeanors and felonies are treated differently under the law. So, my question is, “How will we respond when this plan is enacted?” I am not trying to minimize. I am calling a thing what it actually is under the… Read more »
Alan, I am not for calling illegally crossing our border a felony. It is currently not (in most cases). I am not for dismissing infringing on our national sovereignty as a small insignificant crime – because it isn’t. I am for legal and regulated immigration that helps both the immigrant family and our country. Legal immigration helps both – illegal immigration HURTS both. I am not for executing people or throwing them in prison never to be heard from again (like north Korea). Not sure why you thought you needed to invoke that notion as if I had suggested we… Read more »
Dave, we mostly agree. I was not really directing my comment AT you. Just responding to what you said generally. We have talked about this before and I know where you stand. I was just explaining why I was using the “misdemeanor” language – not to minimize, but to accurately define what it is. I brought up North Korea as an extreme example – not directing that AT you, per se. You have good positions overall, in my opinion, not that I am the arbiter of that. This is a complex issue and I think that as long as we… Read more »
I do try hard to see it through the eyes of compassion. These are people not objects we are talking about. I just happen the think that favoring the rule of law and legal immigration is not necessarily mutually exclusive to compassion and caring for the least of these. I readily admit it can be though…
As for “mostly agreeing” – you know how to fix that, right? You just need to agree with me where we disagree then we will be both in complete agreement AND right! 😉
As Christians we are to have compassion on illegal immigrants. As a nation, we have the right to deny them benefits and send them back home. On the other hand, I’m for legal, regulated immigration. As some are presenting this, those who wish to uphold the sovereignty of the USA and our immigration laws are evil; those who violate our laws and illegally come to the USA are the victims. If an American man illegally moves his family to another country, and that country sends them back, the suffering of the children is primarily the fault of the illegal behavior… Read more »
“If an American man illegally moves his family to another country, and that country sends them back, the suffering of the children is primarily the fault of the illegal behavior of the father.”
I disagree David. Strongly disagree. It is our fault and it is the church’s fault if we say nothing. There are better ways! I have a hard time when someone who claims to have Christ says something like this!
But, Why? You haven’t said WHY you disagree. If I were to side-step the whole visa/passport process and move my family to England, and then England found out and sent me back…how is that process not “primarily” (David’s word) MY FAULT? Is it MORE the fault of the Christians in England who did not speak up for the “right” of my family to stay in England? (I will say I think it is possible to agree with David’s statement here, but disagree that it applies directly to EVERY illegal immigration situation. If my family were starving and I moved them… Read more »
David , you are correct in your statement. As far as the nonsense about the “people with not voice” they have the entire Democrat Party, the gang of 8 and the liberal press on their side acting as their voice. You can tell by the postings here now emotion and the lack of knowledge is winning the battle that is giving the USA such an unnecessary debate and problems. It is just wrong what the illegal aliens are doing to this country. If the good people in this country want to do what they percieve right than make it an… Read more »
Actually, American voters have shown that they favor a pathway to legal status for those who have been here for years, will pay fines and back taxes, and will go through a process/pathway to earn legal status, which is what the Gang of 8 proposed. Those are facts. Polling on this always shows a large majority of Americans being in favor of such a pathway to earned legal status. And, many people are victims. Many are trafficked, many children are brought across the border with their families, many are lied to and told that they will be welcomed once they… Read more »
I agree with Dave Brumbelow ‘ If an American man illegally moves his family to another country, and that country sends them back, the suffering of the children is primarily the fault of the illegal behavior of the father.” How could it be ” our fault and it is the church’s fault if we say nothing. There are better ways! I have a hard time when someone who claims to have Christ says something like this!” Debbie Kaufman? I think that the Leviticus passage does not apply for this reason: No where in the bible does it imply or that… Read more »
Greg, you are not going to get any real exchange on a meaningful level on this topic. It is emotion, the following of the press and progressive view of an open border, people are not illegal point of view. The SBC seems to be drifting into works and social justice as part of salvation. The Catholic liberation theology and many mainstream church social agenda works are seeping in by leadership design. Will opposition of the $15 minimum wage be a gauge whether you have lost your Christian values? When I very simply want the laws and security of this nation… Read more »
Not any real exchange on a meaningful level? You mean that everyone is not going to just slovenly agree with you and say, “Oh wait! You’re right! Children brought here as babies who are now 20 years old should be rounded up and sent back to countries that they have never been to before all so you can feel SAFER.” That is just wrong. No. You won’t get agreement from me on that. The inability to even consider for a moment that there should be some kind of compromise or mercy extended to people who didn’t even choose to commit… Read more »
Amen Alan!
And Steve S: Yes, there is certainly some emotion involved, called caring, compassion, loving. More ought to allow it as it is the fruit of the Spirit and is who we are as Christians. The Christians battle cry is not “Onward Christian Soldiers” or at least it shouldn’t be. It is as Christ said, “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
Remember this. Emotion and feelings is what makes us human beings. It is a gift from God. To not feel anything and to shut down emotions relying completely on the brain or “logic” is how Hitler got those under him to do the terrible atrocities they did and not feel a thing. It was just duty.The people they killed or tortured were not human beings in their eyes. They quit feeling. No emotion. Also, it’s how ISIS operates by not feeling anything or getting a high by the horrible death and suffering of others they deem inferior. It’s emotion that… Read more »
Lol! Was expecting Godwins law to be invoked at any moment…..and Debbie did not disappoint.
And Tarheel, yours is a perfect example of following sheep and meer words shaping your thinking. Let’s take “Godwins Law” for an example. One man, mind you not a group, but one man says to use Hitler as an example where I believe appropriate, he (one man) does not, and makes it a “law”, everyone refers to it every time the Holocaust or Hitler is mentioned where appropriate as I believe it is in this case. Supposedly the word of one man, means that the debate is lost. One man caused people such as yourself to take it as “law”.… Read more »
On top of that, Debbie is just flat out wrong. Hitler’s movement was very emotionally charged. You will find that most movements that go wrong and hurt many people are characterized by unbridled passions. Hitler riled up people’s emotions.
Now if you would have used the word compassion in the place of emotion, then you would have been right. Hate is an emotion, anger is an emotion.
John: I disagree. There was no emotion, no feeling at all. It was like brainwashing occurred, not a stirring of any emotion. Read the history. Look at their faces. No emotion. No feeling, nothing. It was their thoughts that were changed, not their emotion.
I am quite the student of history, Debbie, and Hitler used and stirred up the anger and resentment that the German people were already feeling in order to propel him to power. Anger is an emotion, Debbie, and it doesn’t cause people to do anything good.
But yes compassion might have been a better word to use.
I would disagree that anger doesn’t cause people to do good. It’s anger at the way these immigrants are treated that brought attention to this situation, granted along with compassion, but anger was involved as well. Anger is not always a bad emotion.
It’s anger at the way women or blacks were treated or anger at other mistreatments that caused awareness and change. I know I am angry at this situation.
When anger does something good it is because it is godly anger, not human anger. James tells us the wrath of man does not work the righteousness of God.
I am going to go further and say that the Holocaust was carried out by training reasonable people to obey orders from a person of authority. Taking away emotion and making a person an object, an insignificant such as I believe is being done toward immigrants. As was done to blacks in our history. They were non-human so the mistreatment was accepted. Some see the word illegal immigrant and that changes them into a non-human and therefore the consequences to them such as children being pulled from their parents and vice-versa is part of the consequences and doesn’t matter. They… Read more »
Debbie…it was a joke. A joke. Har, har. Laugh a little. Loosen up. Relax. Every point of disagreement is not a cause for an all out assault. Godwin’s law seems to be valid though. Most internet discussions I’ve seen that are of a highly charged emotional/passionate nature end up there at some point….its true. Someone will wither compare a situation or a person to Hitler/Holocaust. (There are other “laws” too….basically the effort to sensationalize a point or discussion is almost certain to come up at some point in an internet discussion. I was not attacking you – I was actually… Read more »
Not that I buy that excuse for a second Tarheel, but on this subject I don’t joke. It’s too serious and devastating for those illegals facing what Alan has described. There is a time to joke, this isn’t it.
“Why is the ERLC so determined to get involved in Republican nomination but the progressive Democrat get a pass because “that is the way they are and we know”.”
This has been answered ad nauseum and based on the answers given here, the ERLC is doing and saying the right things. If we don’t clean up ourselves, what the Democrats do doesn’t really matter. Corruption and wrong thinking does not belong in the thinking and behavior of Christians.
I have not ever said no one was a believer if they believe as you do Greg. I agree with Alan’s post in that the application of that role of a believer is terribly misapplied. It does go against what the scripture teaches we are in Christ and that includes our thinking. Alan’s comment was right on the mark and he said it better than I could have.
I will say that I could not tell you were Christ followers by your comments.
But, I will say this, you and I totally agree about this immigration issue. The Mexican people that I have been associated with only make America a better place.
Thank you John, excellent statement and on this we do agree.
The Mexican and Honduran people that I know are wonderful people. They’re hard working people, who are nice and friendly.
David
There was one of those “interesting facts” in the Time Magazine I got today. It said that 17% of the US workforce was foreign born.
The attacks and violence against Trump supporters is systemic. It’s happening in many, many places. And, I’m not just talking about people screaming at them, either. I’m talking about bottles being thrown, punches being thrown, eggs being thrown, cars being vandalized, spitting on people, cursing people, ganging up on a person and beating him.
And, still no word of condemnation from all the Never Trump and Stop Trump people, who are not violent.
crickets.
David, there is no denying this fact about the liberal mainstream press and its coverage- what if the anti Trump protestors were anti Clinton protestors doing the same actions with flags from Germany, shutting down and attacking Democrat rallies. What would the news coverage look and sound like. How many articles would Dr. Moore and others write about the influence of Trump on civil society and why the racist Trump supporters are afraid of peaceful rallies. Romney the man who stayed in a church who officially discriminated against black people now is an expert on racism? How much press and… Read more »