We are in Orlando determining the direction of the SBC for many years to come. We will elect a president who will guide us for the next couple of years. That may not be our most crucial decision, but it will reveal something about who we are. We will vote on several motions. I think that our response to Dwight McKissic’s motion on racism will reveal how much progress we have made in racial issues. Of course, the GCR will be the al turning point. Will we embrace the vision the Task Force has put forward or will we turn back and hold onto the status quo?
But there is another question behind these questions. What is the true SBC majority? Which vision, which ministry model, which theological outlook really represents the majority in our convention?
There are several possibilities here. I remember many years ago hearing Vance Havner opined that the majority of Southern Baptists were unconverted. A scary thought, isn’t it – that the true majority among us is unredeemed? I hope that is not true, but for the sake of this discussion, we must assume that the SBC majority is born-again children of God.
But who is the majority in this convention? The megachurches? The small churches? I would like to reflect on that for a few moments.
Les Puryear has put up a website with 150 or so signatories which has laid claim to the SBC Majority mantle. The majority of Southern Baptist churches average fewer than 200 in attendance. This, according to Puryear, is the majority. But a recent study published at “Between the Times” showed that 70% of Southern Baptists attend larger churches. It seems that a majority of churches are smaller, but the majority of Baptists chose larger churches. So, who is the real majority?
There is a simple answer to this question. The true Baptist majority is the majority of messengers here in Orlando for the SBC Annual meeting. Majority. It is the messengers at the Annual Meeting who decide the direction of the convention. We are conservative today because a majority of messengers at 30 consecutive conventions voted for conservative candidates. This gathering of believers who represent churches across this country form the true majority.
Who will be president? The SBC majority will tell us today. Will we support the GCR? Only the messengers know. It is a great privilege to be able to hold my ballot in the air and be part of the decision-making process for this great convention. Every church; big or small, north, south, east or west can be a part of this process, a part of the majority (or, perhaps, the minority – who knows?). I am excited about the privilege of being a part of this deliberative body.
The true SBC majority will be in the West Concourse of the Convention Center tomorrow, wearing badges and wielding ballots.
Everything else is theory, rhetoric and conjecture.
“Every church; big or small, north, south, east or west can be a part of this process”
Only the poor SBC churches are excluded. The ones that have so little and would rather give to missions than buy plane tickets and hotel rooms.
That in the year 2010 the Southern Baptist Convention sill requires it’s cooperating Churches to spend thousands of dollars and travel thousands of miles to attend a convention in order to be represented in the making such important decisions as the ones now being made Orlando is just absurd.
No, the voice of the Majority of cooperating churches in the SBC will once again not be heard at this convention… and I seriously doubt it ever will be.
Grace Always,
Dr. Chapman just urged all 24000 churches under 200 in attendance to save up and send just one messenger. This is doable!
I understand what you guys are saying. But, my point is that the majority that determines the future of the convention is the messenger majority.
We can debate who is the “majority” all day long. But the messengers ARE the majority as long as our polity is what it is.
I suggest we prepare a motion for the 2011 meeting allowing internet voting.
With all due respect to Dr. Chapman.. I would to ask just how many millions of dollars were spent by the SBC and the churches sending their messengers to this years convention in Orlando that could have been saved and spent on missions if the SBC would just embrace the modern age and end this outdated method of doing it’s business. The above is not just rhetoric… How many millions have we spent over the years on these Conventions that we will give account before God for? If we moved to a more modern system then every cooperating church, regardless… Read more »
Greg, I remember someone else saying, “This woman could have sold her anointing oil and given the money to the poor.” We know that Judas really had not concern for the poor at all. In your case, I know the motive behind your post is more honorable, but there is a part of it that misses the point. First, your post ignores the value of fellowship. Contrary to what some my think, most people attend these meetings for the “between business fellowship,” and for the experience of being with other brothers and sisters in the faith. Unfortunately, there always seems… Read more »
Matt, Reality Check for us all… Fact #1— Passing the GCRTF recommendations and the election/exchange of one set of bureaucrats for a new set of bureaucrats will not make the desired “Great Commission Resurgence” in the SBC a reality. Fact #2 — The vast majority of cooperating churches in the SBC are currently, at best, nominally plugged into and excited about the work of the SBC. Fact #3 — Until we (the SBC) reconnect with the leadership of each and every cooperating church in the SBC, we will never see these churches excited again about the work of the SBC… Read more »
Greg, great summary. In this regard, I think Morris Chapman danced around it a bit . . . the key to the Great Commission is not a great convention (though that helps) but the Baptist on the pew. Without Mr. and Mrs. (and Ms.) Baptist, nothing else really works.
If we don’t have a big convention, I can’t be rebuked for my bad handwriting.
Now I’m famous for something!
Doug, possessor of the worst handwriting in the SBC
Brother, Regardless of handwriting, yours was a very worthy amendment. The reasons given for it’s impracticality were weak: cost of time and energy, inability to sort out confidential information promised to be held secret from all other comments, etc. Please! Plenty of money and time has been spent so far. They are smart enough to figure what can and cannot be disclosed. They did not want to disclose it because some of the information would reveal their long term agenda or some other such controversial matter. Lord willing, this 45 year old might live to see the day when the… Read more »
I wasn’t there at that time. What was Doug’s amendment”
I believe Doug understood Dr. Mohler’s position oppsing unsealing the recordings due to certain testimonies by persons who were promised confidentiality. At the same time, he reasoned that ALL of the proceedings surely did not fit in this category and that Baptist journalists felt more information was needed to understand the work of the Task Force. Thus, he proposed (by means of his now infamous penmanship) that a group get together including representation from the press, the Historical Commission, legal counsel and the Task Force in order to release any information that did not compromise confidentiality. Al had already spoken… Read more »
I got in the building just in time to vote for unsealing the records, and lost. I think that Doug’s amendment made lots of sense.
Greg, In the interest of full disclosure you should know I serve on staff at Woodstock, so that probably makes me quite biased, but I wanted to share my thoughts with you briefly. Habakkuk 2:2 says, ” where there is no vision the people perish.” The GCR isn’t a mandate or the end-all solution to all of the SBC’s problems. The TF has never claimed it was. The GCR is a report written by long-time SBC folks in collaboration with agency heads and those in the field. The TF itself was compromised of many varying opinions. The end result was… Read more »
Dallas White, Thanks for being somewhat honest and letting others know about your bias. That aside, how can there be unity when the President of the Convention asked for anybody who had problems with the report to “rot in the wilderness?” I miss the warm fuzzy nature of that sentiment. Also, Woodstock gave exactly “$0.00” dollars to Annie Armstrong last year. I wonder how many thousands ministries (or ministers) at your church received from NAMB in that same year? Yes, the church did give $200,000 plus to other designated projects at NAMB. But that could not be counted as CP… Read more »
Dallas, Thank you for your very gracious words… they are “well received.” In the interest of full disclosure for me as well… I have followed the formation of the GCRTF recommendations very closely and have when asked given my input into their formation. The GCRTF recommendations have my “Full Support” and, for the first time in a long time, I am excited about the renewed vision God has given the Southern Baptist Convention. I suppose I need to “clean up” my original comments that have been taken in a negative light. These three short statements I think will do that… Read more »
Tony Cartledge has an interesting take this morning at hisblog. This former editor of the BiblicalRecorder remembers BoldMission Thrust. Within the SBC World, Greg Alford in comment 8 above gets to the point. It may be that when push comes to shove, many local Bapstist churches are looking for a kind of Baptist Statesmanship that Duke McCall and Roy Honeycutt had; and Al Mohler and Ronnie Floyd may not have those gifts. I remember John Baugh once said Paul Pressler was not a gentleman. It may turn on that kind of temperament. Billy Sunday, whatever his gifts were, was not… Read more »
Matt, I’m a little disappointed you saw my post as only “somewhat honest.” I attempted to disclose exactly who I was and share only verifiable facts in my post. To my knowledge I did that. You have raised a variety of other concerns, and I would encourage you to take those concerns directly to our team of pastors at Woodstock. Simply shoot an email to any one of our senior staff members and I’m confident they could speak to your concerns. My greatest concern is that you have painted Woodstock as a church that does not care or fund mission… Read more »
I’ve already communicated with the pastoral staff of Woodstock and, just like your post, they did not address the issue — such as giving $0 to Annie Armstrong. I agree Woodstock has many “independent” mission projects. That’s part of my issue. Independent does not mean Cooperative. If Woodstock chooses to be an Independent Baptist church I fully support that, but don’t say you support NAMB missions, for example, and give $0 to Annie Armstrong. It is this type of shell game that really frustrates a small church pastor like myself that sees Johnny Hunt’s words as empty rhetoric. He has… Read more »
I’ve been involved in SBC churches for the last 30 years (which also happens to be my age); and I’ve been a small-church pastor for the last 6 (and by “small church” I mean small enough to not be able to pay the pastor much or have any other paid staff). Obviously, churches like mine would be hard pressed to support a single missionary, let alone a group. Hence the purpose of the CP: to allow us little churches the opportunity to fund missionaries by cooperating w/ other churches. Personally, I would rather be in a position like Woodstock, etc.,… Read more »
Michael,
I think you make some really great points… If I have time later I will interact with you more!
matt2239 “Woodstock members had an axe to grind (with the former discharged NAMB president as a member) with NAMB and they ground it partially by participating in the Geoff Hammond witchhunt and sending $0 to Annie Armstrong.”
We did?
I am just a lowly member of FBCW who stumbled upon your nice presentation of “love” toward others. Well if we are all (FBCW members are as a horrible as you imply) at least we work in unity.
Jesse, I understand your animosity toward me for pointing out the obvious. I’d be a little ticked off myself. That does not change the facts of the matter as have been stated. Thank you for speaking for the people of Woodstock, which I never addressed. People in earlier posts wondered about a “hidden agenda” behind the GCRTF Report. I guess you cleared that up. If I understand you correctly: Woodstock members (self-described by you) were aware of the animosity between Woodstock’s leadership and NAMB. So, people’s suspicion of that animosity turn out to be: 1) of general or widespread knowledge… Read more »
Matt2239,
I’ve re-read Jesse’s comments several times and I find no basis for your accusing him of “animosity.” He merely points out that he as a member of the church you’re going after in this thread does not know what basis your accusations towards its membership (including him) have. I think maybe you should cool down the rhetoric a bit.
Josh, you obviously did not read very carefully and you obviously have never had any contact with the leadership of Woodstock, so you obviously sound like a “clanging cymbal” to me. I’ll repeat: I’ve never said anything about any member of Woodstock except to respond to what the “top” membership of Woodstock has said about anyone who might have a difference of opinion with him. So, for your sake and others, Josh, I’ll say it again: “My post concerns the leadership of Woodstock and the comments and actions he put on “public” display. Johnny had a “personal and professional” agenda… Read more »
Matt,
thank you for your response. I am “obviously” done discussing with you for the time being.
Guidestone announced changes in insurance coverage that are part of the new health care law. They still don’t cover some pastors with existing conditions -now. Time to play the “What If” game. I would pay my income tax, social security and medicare and have that confidence of income & medical care. Your wife is covered there also with separate benefits. “What If” the SBC doesn’t get the increases it desires? No wonder Richard Land doesn’t upport new health care laws when it will force insurance companies, perhaps Guidestone, to change it’s rules and provide insurance instead of hoarding money. “What… Read more »
Jack,
People don’t support Obamacare because it is socialized medicine which will lead to a lower standard of care for Americans. Anyone who wants a socialized system of medicine should move to a country that has one. I’ll be more than happy to help them pack.
Joe, I appreciate your offer to pack me but I would rather have you find healthcare for pastors that are turnred down for coverage by guidestone and I assume everybody else. Others that don’t want better healthcare are those with private plans that are solvent at this moment. Many that are using “Obamacare” as you put it have experienced their companies going bust with health or pensions eliminated. Pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies that game the system don’t want changes The poor don’t know what health care is about in Canada or wherever else you have in mind but what… Read more »
Sure, you will show me where it is my responsiblity to make sure those pastors have health care, yes? I lost my job, my wife lost her job, and we had no health insureance for us or our daughter while I was also working a bi-vo pastoral gig that offered no benefits (not a complaint–just an observation). So you know what I did? Since I wanted better for my family, I did this crazy thing called, gasp, going back to school and getting a better job. It’s called “Being.A.Responsible.Adult”.
Real Numbers and the Mega-church Movement. Mega-churches like to use “numbers” when talking about their accomplishments. For example so and so church baptized 438 people last year. Wow! That’s impressive . . . or is it? Or so and so church gave $178,000 to Lottie Moon. That’s impressive . . . or is it? Take the first number — a real number from the convention. That’s just over 6% of the congregations weekly attendance. That’s the equivalent of the “typical” SBC church baptizing 5 or 6. If you relate the number of baptisms to a percentage of the annual income… Read more »
Sounds like Johnny Hunt has sucessfully completed another Business 101 in that it appears he can collect and dispense funds that excite his congregation where he wants while getting credit for giving under the cooperative program where only a few know where the green goes. There was an amendment at this point but I’m not sure it corrected this condition. Johnny Hunt is a smart man who I admire and if I had grown a mega-mega-church from nothing with hard work and leadership I would be reluctant to relinquish control of a huge amount of proceeds to some that need… Read more »
I am not a great fan of the mega church movement nor of the GCR, although I did end up voting for it. But I don’t care what the number are, I am thankful 438 people are now saved. I am thankful that money was given. I believe they could give more and should give more through the CP so all the ministries of the SBC could be funded. But we are coming dangerously close to ascribing sinful or less than holy motives to them. Disagree with them, but the GCR was thot up so that the mega churches could… Read more »
Matt2239 “So, for your sake and others, Josh, I’ll say it again: “My post concerns the leadership of Woodstock and the comments and actions he put on “public” display. Johnny had a “personal and professional” agenda — at least in part — in regard to the GCRTF Report. Jesse admitted in his post the same.” What did I admit too? Perhaps you read into my post in a literal sense, but that was not my intention and I greatly appreciate my pastor, Johnny Hunt as well as all the church staff. matt2239 “Woodstock members had an axe to grind ”… Read more »
Actually, Jesse I only refer to the “staff” I actually spoke with and communicated in writing. Again, you paint with a broad brush. I’m glad you love and support your pastor, but if he has some things he needs to answer to, then I think he should be accountable — in regard to his public and published statements. Remember, your pastor set himself and his church up as an example for others to follow, but when the numbers come out — as you will see from my post above — they do not match the rhetoric. Please keep this in… Read more »
Perhaps it is not that I ignore facts, but yet I am like many ignorant to all of them. Honestly I only stumbled across this forum just to see how the SBC went. As a child of God I suppose I just want to be ignorant of some things because perhaps I am in the milk stage and do not carry the same burdens as an annointed man of God. My concern is at the simplest form and it is for those who are in need of the Lord. As a body of Christ is the hand being the hand… Read more »
Thank you for accepting my apology. And please know that even though I have some lingering issues with those who stepped into the spotlight, I do not wish to see anyone come “tumbling down.” Unity requires honesty and transparency. I think both may have been slightly lacking in the process. I am not in a position to do anything about what I “think,” I “might” know. So, I am only going to ride this horse a little further. If others who should know what I think I know, choose to hide it under the rug, I’m moving on. I wish… Read more »
The following link is my testimony on Google Docs From there you can see why there is a need for pastorial leaders to do what they believe is right for the denomination, but it is another thing that people like me have a place assigned by God as a place of refuge from the world and mostly from my flesh. I am so grateful that FBCW was there when God gave me an opportunity to be forgiven. I believe I ended up at the right place and I am grateful to all those who have helped me get on the… Read more »
Joe, I had already written another post before I saw your post 31. This might be in response to what you wrote there. I’m probably 40 years older or more than you and the same thing happened to mewith a large company going bankrupt taking everything with them including retirement. Not crying as you said but I had a son in University and I’ve got severe health problems. I didn’t take it sitting down. I’ve seen these scenerios unfold and listened to balogna spouted by Officials that were hollow. Going back to school was not an option for me but… Read more »
the Bible does say somthing about helping people in need
The Bible does not say anything about it being the governments responsiblitity to social healthcare and therefore trash the greatest healthcare system on the planet. The Bible does mandate that I help out–it does not mandate Obama sticking his filthy Kenyan paws in my pocket to take my money to help out.
I can volunteer to help you pack if you want. Remember there is a whole U.S. House of Representatives and Senate that created and passed what are improvements to the best healthcare in the world that was getting ripped off. I’m sure it will work out for you. Reasonable men may differ. Again , Peace
Remember, this is also the healthcare bill that is going to lead to legalized baby murders being financed with taxpayer money. That is why Christians didn’t suport it
Matt,
Would you mind emailing me the name(s) of the staff member(s) you spoke with about missions at Woodstock?
I’d love to follow up with them and you.
I’m more than happy to share my phone number with you via email so we could talk about your questions. Sometimes DBs like this one fail to convey things correctly, and when it comes to this type of discussion, it’s important that they do.
Much Love!
DW
Already been there, done that, have the T–Shirt. As I said, I’m going to wait to see if those who “should” clear up this issue bring it to light, with all the facts, cancelled checks, minutes of meetings, etc. As I’ve said, either the “powers to be” (which is not me) put up or shut up. If they don’t put up, then I’m through with the issue.
Adding you to that mix at this time would only engender more hard feelings and useless gossip.
Dallas, Feel free to comment on the issue raised about how the President of the Convention can claim to support the SBC, but the church gave “0” to Annie Armstrong and only a token amount per attendee to Lottie Moon. Right now I don’t remember the CP amount, but feel free to add that to your response. These are all a matter of public record and do not bode well for someone claiming to support the SBC. If you want to enlighten me as to that this one single issue, that would be a good place to start the dialogue.… Read more »
Dallas, thank you for your gracious spirit, and that demonstrated by Dr. Hunt as he moderated the meeting. I did not agree with everything he said or did, but his spirit was Christ-like at all times as he led the convention.
I am sorry you have been treated as you have been on the comment stream of a post I have wrote.
“:Les Puryear has put up a website with 150 or so signatories which has laid claim to the SBC Majority mantle. The majority of Southern Baptist churches average fewer than 200 in attendance. This, according to Puryear, is the majority. But a recent study published at “Between the Times” showed that 70% of Southern Baptists attend larger churches. It seems that a majority of churches are smaller, but the majority of Baptists chose larger churches. So, who is the real majority?” Maybe the convention should use the Electoral College method. Each church gets a vote on each issue whether there… Read more »
Richard Land is huge. Very large and he can be thankful that it is now against the law for his health insurance provider to refuse to cover him. If it’s Guidestone then Southern Batists are indirectly providing that insurance. And Guidestone tried to claim improvements in their Health programs in their presentation that are now required by law. They had to change. Oh Well!
Jack, that was kind of unkind wasn’t it? I saw Richard Land and he could certainly lose a few pounds. But your description of him is not entirely fair.
Dave, I appreciate your type of response instead of I should leave the country. Richard Lands ELRC allows him to play ‘hardball” with others. His position against many things as an SBC official lets him speak for me somewhat and I think I’m as correct as I guess he does. One of those items was the recent hate crime bill that had protections for pastors and teachers and he wouldn’t change his position. Nothing but Capitol Hill politics and buffets at every hotel in the evening. I’ve seen him dish it out so I know he can take it and… Read more »
This was my second SBC and the first time I ever voted as a messenger. It would seem prudent to join the 21st century with respect to technology by allowing some sort of electronic vote. Personally, I’m not comfortable handing my ballot to the person on my right to be navigated to a ballot collector. I seem to remember disenfranchisement being an issue in Florida once before. Today’s technology would expedite the process.
I think people are basically honest at the SBC, Byron. I am personally opposed to electronic balloting for several reasons. First, there is a much greater chance for skullduggery. What’s to stop me from signing up 10 messengers and voting all ten times? As I read comments, I realized that watching the SBC on computer gives a much different impression than being in the room. I think that perspective matters. On a personal note, the best part of the convention was the fellowship. That is completely lost in computer balloting. Just don’t like the idea. Hope we can survive the… Read more »
Thank you for your comments Dave. I definitely agree with you that the fellowship was priceless. I am a student of LRU online and have been able to attend the luncheon for the past two years, greatly benefiting my perspective of the school and faculty. I have been so blessed by the Lord to have been led to LRU.
Blessings to all.
I actually think we may have crossed paths at the convention. I remember seeing a “Van Arsdale” name tag. Knew a guy in college with that name (Artie). I remember it registering in my mind when I saw it.
Mr. Miller writes: “Will we embrace the vision the Task Force has put forward or will we turn back and hold onto the status quo?” I have personally tried to put myself in the stance of forwarding the Great Commission most of my life. I have always thought the SBC, though not perfect, was always on mission to forward the Great Commission. The Task Force isn’t going to forward SBC to be more on mission for Christ. The vote to accept the GCR, may very well have weaken the giver (we shall see), set in motion selective giving for what… Read more »