I was feeling rowdy this morning, so I left a comment over on this helpful post by Ed Stetzer. Then I realized that blog is a little boring and wanted to set you commenting animals loose. Besides, I think they just deleted my comment anyway! That kind of controlled discussion always raises my blood pressure.
He was listing the factors that might keep younger leaders away from the SBC annual meetings. Here’s what I said.
Thanks for the helpful post and I see myself in a few of your reasons. Here are two more that you can’t say:
6. The brand value of SBC is beyond zero and now far into the negative.
7. Our missions model is simply outdated and encourages waste at almost every level.
That’s just the way I’ve been looking at things lately.
What do you think keeps young billy goats away from the Sacred Hill?
The Conservative Resurgence led to the firing of many Seminary presidents and profs. The convention took a stance the ends justify the means. Get rid of the moderate influence at any costs. At that time you lost the respect of many younger leaders. I believe in every miracle of the bible and the inerrancy of scripture and I was a little put off. I still don’t trust completely everyone in charge. I guess what I’m trying to say is that they lost my trust in leadership. I can’t stand church politics and I look at every proposal with skepticism. What… Read more »
And, herein is some of the problem with a lot of the younger guys…total disrespect for the “older ones” of our SBC. I mean, anyone over the age of “40” is decomposing on stage? I guess? lol. So, are you saying that you dont like to hear anyone preach, who’s over the age of 40? or 50? or 60? I really sense a rebellious, young, disrespectful attitude in some of the younger people in the SBC right now. Not all of them, but in some of them. And, it’s almost like if you’re not Ed Stetzer, or into the emerging,… Read more »
Volfan,
That was like the prototypical response from your generation… They dont like something, therefore, “I sense a rebellious, young, disrespectful attitude.”
No one is saying people over the age of 45 arent relevant. That was a childish, emotional response. The younger generation simply doesnt want to see the same guys every single year. I’ll take Jerry Vines every now and then, but give me some David Platt and Matt Chandler as well.
And Matt you just proved his point with a childish response. When it’s pointed out that the young “leaders” have shown an incredible disrespect to older ministers. You start name calling. The Bible doesn’t say respect your elders when you agree with them it says respect your elders period. Having a a seminary degree doesn’t entitle one to the title of “leader”
What you see in the SBC is rampant in society which is this sense of entitlement. Used to be men came out of college and knew they were going to have to work their way up a corporation and maybe some day they’d make it to vice president but today these punks get out if school and they expect the position their fathers spent thirty years working toward – why should they have to Put in any actual time working when they’re ready now. That’s what’s happening in the SBC is you have these young punks who don’t believe they… Read more »
And Bess responds with a childish response… and I respond with a childish response… etc. Baloney. While respect is due to older convention leaders, unless the older leaders respond with something other than mere complaining about younger leaders, things won’t change. Ed Stetzer made some very good points and Tony added two other good ones. These are the types of issues that younger leaders have before them. They are good issues to discuss and younger leaders will tend to lead in such a way as to address them. If older leaders won’t address them meaningfully, then we have an impasse… Read more »
And until the young cry babies quit their whiny about how young “leaders” don’t get no respect the young crybabies are going to be treated like the infants they are. “we don’t want to go to the SBC cause it’s boring wah wah wah”. You know why the little whiners don’t leave the SBC? Cause no other denominations would put up with their “we are so much smarter and cooler than you stupid old men now give us the power and money of the SBC and get out of our way.”. There is no successful organization who would up witha… Read more »
Amen Bess!!
Matt,
I believe Matt Chandler and David Platt have preached at the SBC for the past 2 or 3 years.
David
I’m not sure age is the big issue. Most of my buddies love RC Sproul & John Piper & some even love Billy Graham.
These guys are not SBC, but they are old.
David, You said: And, herein is some of the problem with a lot of the younger guys…total disrespect for the “older ones” of our SBC. Disagreement doesn’t mean disrespect. What does our SBC mean? If our means everyone then those who disagree have the right to do so. I really sense a rebellious, young, disrespectful attitude in some of the younger people in the SBC right now. Not all of them, but in some of them. This assertion assigns motive to some younger people in the SBC and therefore may be taken as disrespectful. It seems to only reflect back… Read more »
Calling older Pastors preaching at the SBC “decomposing” on stage is respectful?
Give me a break.
David
That was one disrespectful remark that you used to generalize about many (most?) young SBC leaders. Again, is this the leadership you would offer that the younger should follow?
There is probably some truth to much of that (Stetzer’s reasons and yours). I think a simple reason is that many younger ministers are in church positions like youth or associate pastors, are trying to work some other job, finish schooling, are pastoring (perhaps bi-vocationally) at a smaller church in a smaller town, and/or are church planting. Most of these situations afford these younger ministers with little time or resources to go halfway across the country to attend the SBC and pay for hotels. I know some trooper out there will argue that a TRUE SBC pastor will use his… Read more »
Good ol’ boys gospel quartets like “Casting Crowns?”
lol. i’m not really sure Casting Crowns is really what 20-30 year-olds listen to, but anything’s a big improvement over Southern Gospel. 🙂
Does anyone remember the Gathers singing “Somewhere between Jesus & John Wayne” at the INDY SBC 08. There were crowds of younger guys at the back laughing because it was so weird.
That is heresy. My mom and dad LOVE Gaither.
Dave,
You favor Bill Gaither a little bit.
For disclosure I do not agree with all of the BF&M 2000 so take this for what it’s worth. I think the attraction used to be the Cooperative Program. I think that is over. I think what has kept some younger leaders attracted is the IMB. I do not think it is the BF&M 2000. I think the BF&M is seen as what is necessary to do missions through the IMB, but the IMB is/has been the main attraction. If young leaders lose faith in the IMB, then I think it’s over. Personally, I believe I now value most of… Read more »
If Benji is correct, and the BFM2K is not important to the young guys, then we’re in serious trouble in the SBC…very serious trouble.
And, to say that Southern and Southeastern are the best shows your bias about Calvinism, or the emerging, missional, whatever movement. Southwestern and New Orleans and the other SB seminaries are very, very good schools. Why do you put them beneath the ones you mentioned?
David
Volfan, I would argue that the BFM2000 really isnt important to Les and Lumpkins is well. If it were they would know that the BFM2000 allows freedom on these “reformed” issues. Yet, those two continue to act as if being a Reformed Southern Baptist is an oxymoron. The BFM allows freedom in these things, but those two and many others do not. We do they and others insist on making Calvinist Southern Baptists feel unwelcome as if they dont really belong. Which is exactly what they do. I would say that all the schools are good schools. I dont know… Read more »
WEll, I think Southwestern has the best staff in SBC schools, and Mid America Baptist Seminary has the best overall.
Also, Matt, if doctrine is no longer important in the SBC, then we’re in such major trouble that is frightening. And, for you to say that Peter Lumpkins and Les Puryear dont seem to care about the BFM2K is a very childish and stupid statement to make. Of course, they care about doctrine and the BFM2K. You cant read what they write without seeing that.
David
Hmm…
Defending Les Puryear and Peter Lumpkins while attacking the person make the statement without addressing the substance of the post.
Bravo, good sir. Bravo.
And so very typical of your crowd.
What, was Joe Blackmon too busy punching kittens and stealing candy from small children to post some mocking reference to Enid?
Bill, you nailed it- attack me and not deal with the content of what I said. I get it a lot.
Volfan,
I didnt say the younger generation dont care about doctrine. And please, deal with what I DID say next time.
But Matt, you did blaspheme in the presence of future seminary students everywhere in saying: “Southern has assembled the best staff, which is what makes a seminary great.” Matt, you and some of the others here have become some of my favorite none dumb young dudes who are smarter than some none smart old dudes. But you and you alone among the none dumb young dudes have fallen from grace to a dismal degree of wretchedness. Let me help you to repent. Repeat after me (and remember you are not saying this to me, but to future seminary students everywhere)… Read more »
Volfan007 I cannot speak for Southwestern, but I can speak to the difference in NOBTS and SBTS because I have degrees from both of them in the last 6 years. I can tell you why I don’t put NOBTS in the same category as SBTS. First SBTS puts a much larger emphasis on academic rigor, simply compare the degree programs and the amount of books written by the respective faculties. Second, SBTS puts a much larger emphasis on hands on local church ministry. Compare the ministries that the respective faculties are involved in at their local churches for evidence. Every… Read more »
Good comment, Chris.
And, I hope this does not offend, but you have one of the coolest names I have ever seen.
Very good points Chris.
Benji,
I think you are right… The IMB certainly seems to be the main attraction to us young guys. We dont care to be a part of the ‘good ole boys’ club in SBC politics. We just want to focus on the mission work of the SBC.
Matt,
You have no missions apart from correct doctrine. It’s not about politics. I could care less about politics. But, if you dont have correct doctrine, then you dont have a mission to begin with.
David
Volfan,
Again, deal with what I am saying- I am not saying doctrine isnt important. In the comment you just addressed I talked about SBC politics, not doctrine. You old guys just cant keep up. 😉
Ahh Matt, come on now.
I always enjoyed the “good ole boys club. ” Its loads of fun. Don’t knock it ’til you try it.
Most younger guys I know affirm the BFM2000. Obviously, they’re going to have personal beliefs that are more detailed than it, but they affirm it. I don’t really think that’s too blame. Maybe some people’s attempts to narrow what is necessary to be “SBC” from what is stated in our common faith agreement have turned some away, but not the BFM2k itself.
Midwestern is very good also. They have a great mix of professors. I greatly enjoyed my time there.
Josh,
Let’s assume that most young leaders affirm everything in the BF&M 2000. Even if that is the case, do you think that many, if not most of them, would want to go to SBC meetings if they lost faith in the IMB? I don’t.
Probably not. since cooperating for mission is THE reason for being part of a convention. I just wanted to add that the guys my age I know don’t have a problem with it, especially not with the 2000 update. (as opposed to some who might argue that the changes therein are the reasons younger pastors leave).
It also might be good to note that failure to attend the annual meeting doesn’t equal leaving the convention. (that’s just a general thought, not in reply to you, Benji)
Josh C,
I do not think the addition of affirming inerrancy and complimentarianism in the BF&M 2000 causes young pastors to leave. However, I think the necessity of having to agree with “all” of the confession in order to to missions through an SBC agency might possibly make a number of them want to leave…perhaps quietly.
You guys can cuss the BF&M all you want to, any edition you desire. But you guys need to stand down on this seminary comparison stuff. SEBTS is number one!! You can put the rest of them in a potato sack and shake them up and which ever one falls out first can be second………a far distant second at that. I think you guys might need to get saved again. You are all backslidden. Next thing you know, you will be sending your kids to the University of Richmond so they can play on the baseball team. Preachers come out… Read more »
Hey, CB, dont be cruel. Mid America is a great seminary. I thoroughly enjoyed my time at this great school, and it emphasizes missions and soul winning like no other school in the world. You want to talk about hands on mission involvement and soul winning? You cant beat Mid America.
David
Proud Alum of Mid America Baptist Theological Seminary, 1988 grad
How many Bible Dictionaries have you sold this year Vol? 🙂
;0
Vol,
I was raggin’ on you, I trust you know that. I have always thought Dr. Allison to be a stand up guy.
Most of the guys that I grew up with left the SBC early on. The seminaries were not to be trusted. They went to Dallas Theological, Reformed, Masters, and other places. They followed the “Jesus” movement by just a few years. All of the energy from that movement said that one did not have to belong to a denomination, and that, in fact, it might almost be a hindrance. They all worked in the parachurch organizations, which are not denominationally funded. Fast forward to today. The SBC brand is damaged. It’s been majorly improved doctrinally due to the CR. The… Read more »
Louis,
I liked your post, but get ready for a BIG firestorm from the BI guys on your 8th point. 🙂
Maybe so. But I like some the BI guys. One of their leaders who is a seminary prof is a dear friend. I enjoy their company. But I don’t agree with them on some particulars. I understand why my seminary prof BI guy feels the way he does. And I think it is important that the SBC be big enough for a seminary prof such as he and others to promote those ideas. We should have a convention that is open to debate and discussion with the understanding that not everything debated and discussed is going to rise to the… Read more »
Louis: For all practical purposes I think you have just abandoned the BFM 2000 as well as the flawwed Rubric of Inerrancy. I don’t see how folks of the intelligence I imagine your friends to have, courting friendships and relationships with those outside the faith, who are gonna be able to hold on to the first 11 chapters of Genesis as History and Science, and talk about such matters Pressler and Patterson; talk about it in the language Pressler did when he went to see Jack Flanders at Baylor in 1960 something. I just don’t believe that. Now they may… Read more »
First, thank you for the sincere compliment. You often say many things that are appealing. Second, I do not read the BFM 2000 that way. I don’t think that it mandates any particular interpretation of Genesis. I believe, for example, that Tim Keller, pastor of Redeemer Presbyterian in NYC would be welcomed at the convention. His interpretation of Genesis may differ from many in the SBC, but he believes that Genesis is true, and is God’s word, and is not a myth written by a man trying to understand what God had done. He believes that the Bible is a… Read more »
Pretty smooth reply Eloquent folks like Randall Balmer, Buddy Shurden, Mark Noll, David Morgan author of The Baptist Crusade, on and on ad infinitem beg to differ with your characterization of Mohler, Pressler etc; and their integrity. I think it was Balmer who named Richard Land for instance, a counterfeit Baptist. But not begging to get into the ad hominems, just pointing that out. I am surprised, at the same time, and heartened by Land’s tack on Immigration. There are some hopeful signs there. As you know I am convinced Bill Moyers has Pressler’s number as did W. J. Wimpee… Read more »
Well, I know that we disagree about the Pressler and Mohler. But the point of my post was that Pressler and Mohler were polished and good spokesmen. I like them, too, and I know that you do not. But I think that you will agree that they are well spoken. What is Bl.com? Why is my identity being speculated about there? I am NOT Louis Moore. The only thing we have in common is our first name. I believe that Louis Moore was a member of Ken Chaffin’s church in Houston and was a moderate supporter early on, but came… Read more »
And Louis et. al. to this I would add the thoughts of a board member of the Progressive Baptist Journal Christian Ethics Today. It will be interesting to see how Louis, if he has time to wade through this, distinguishes himself and SBC vision from the convictions of Fisher Humphreys, particularly on the nature of Scripture. http://tinyurl.com/25vdm9k Almost all the pages of Lost Tradition Chapter and where the SBC goes next came up for me when I clicked. You may also want to reference his index cause there is a great listing there of David Morgan and Nancy Ammerman for… Read more »
“1. Don’t obsess about decline. Tell the truth about where we are. But we are where we are. Obsessing about decline is really idolatrous, even though it often passes for “truth telling.””
Best quote of the post.
You know what John Young?
I tend to agree with you.
Well said, Louis. Since I am not as conservative as most of the people here, my opinion may not be desired, but that a a couple of bucks will get you a cup of coffee at most places, so I’ll share it anyway. When I was a young preacher, I had little interest ingoing to conferences and hearing the same people year after year sharing virtually the same boilerplare messages. Some, I am convinced, were following the same boilerplate, and others simply shared the same convictions and opinions and had the same ideals and aspirations, so their message came off… Read more »
QUOTE I was feeling rowdy END QUOTE I may get involved in the substance of this post, but I don’t know. I imagine we can all just mark “ditto,” to our previous posts on any given blog topic because it all turns out the same anyway. Where in the Bible does Jesus exhort us to be “rowdy” (as in causing strife just for the sake of causing strife). It seems to me, this post takes a Biblical detour from the first sentence. That’s why, so far, I’ve only read the first sentence and scanned quickly the rest of the post.… Read more »
I think Jesus was rowdy too.
“Rowdy” Yates was my favorite character on Rawhide. Mr. Favor used to preach to him all the time for being “rowdy.”
Rawhide!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Clint Eastwood.
Now we’re talkin.
QUOTE I think Jesus was rowdy, too” END QUOTE Therein lies my problem, “I think.” What “I” think really has no bearing on what is true. Show me one Scripture that describes Jesus as “rowdy” in His nature. I do not disagree that Jesus was at times full of righteous indignation, but I do not know of any passage in Scripture that indicates Jesus ever went looking for a “rowdy time.” The issue comes down for me to exactly the scenario you propose: What man thinks versus what God says. This is and has always been at the heart of… Read more »
CB, I agree with you, our American culture is strongly individualistic and “Rowdy” types play to our base nature. My belief is, we should fight (no pun intended) that urge.
SSBN,
I know you are right. But it is kinda like that last scene in “Shane” for some of us. Remember?
It went sorta like this:
Shane: “I’ve got to be going on.”
Joey: “Why Shane.”
Shane: “Man has to be what he is Joey. Can’t break the mold. I tried it, it didn’t work for me.”
Maybe we have too many definitions floating around here. By rowdy I meant ready to engage in a semi-dangerous & dusty activity (like commenting on an SBC blog).
Yeah. Right. KInda the same thing.
Rowdy Yates rode his horse into “stampedes” to stop them. Rowdy Southern Baptists are a “stampede.”
LTB:
Why is it that there is so much division in the SBC? Why can we not just get along?
“Why can we not just get along?”
Tom,
The Rodney King impression ain’t workin’ either. 🙂
Tony: re #7 – on this point, our church virtually has our own mission board if only to track funds and activities and enable more people to go. I wouldn’t have a chance to be an IMB full-timer and the IMB people associated with our church and members of our church seem to have all kinds of difficulty accomplishing their mission because of the IMB. We’ve attracted IMB missionaries because they can mobilize people to help them through our church without fooling with the IMB. And the international political landscape has changed dramatically it seems. Older methods of missionary activity… Read more »
Card’s on the table (in regards to things said in this thread): I’m 30, a pastor, I love and love listening to most of the old guys as well as the younger ones, I don’t like church politics, I am very appreciative of the work of the conservative resurgence including the firing and pressured resignation of certain professors et al., I agree with all points of the BF&M2000 except for their statement that proper baptism must proceed participation in the Lord’s Supper (I’m an open communion guy), I’m not a big fan of the IMB in its current form, and… Read more »
Mike,
Maybe I am just getting really old, but I noticed a lot of “young’uns at the sacred hill” this past June in Orlando. Or at least, I thought I did. But like I said, I may just be getting really old.
BTW, for my money, I wish someone would “convert” the sound of Springsteen for Arizona. It would work for me.
“Born in the USA”
SSBN,
I was thinking more of:
“Land Of Hope And Dreams”
Mike: Great comments. A lot of SBC business is remote to what the average pastor and church do. But there is an important connection. We can bemoan the state of so many institutions. But insitutions depend on those who make them up and lead them. We have a voting franchise in the SBC. Sure, it’s not direct. Sure, there’s a lot of dysfunction and weirdness. But some of the institutions are great. They will only remain great if great people show up and exercise their franchise. Here’s a suggestion. You and a few guys from your church come next year.… Read more »
“Celebrate the good. Endure the bad. Ignore the absurd.”
Louis,
That would make a great movie.
“The Good, The Bad, The Absurd”
Maybe we could get Clint Eastwood to play the role of an aging, former SBC president.
David Platt could be the Rookie Mega-Pastor getting ready to preach at the Pastors’ Conference for the first time.
I can hear it now when Clint says to David, “Look Kid, a preacher has to know his limitations.”
Good one!
QUOTE in my experience and my opinion alone, it’s one thing: how is traveling 100?s of miles to a convention relevant to what my church does on a daily basis? END QUOTE Mike, thank you for a thoughtful post and for realizing what I, too, realize: I owe a great debt to the “old folks” that have gone before (and I’m quickly, almost daily, becoming one of them). I believe that we would be much better off to have a “travelling Convention,” rather than a “you all come” annual meeting. I’d love to see five or six regional (identical) meetings… Read more »
QUOTE In one sense I am “cooperating” with 1000?s of other churches who share a common theology by joining with them to fund missionaries…but on the other hand this is very limited cooperation and almost no true connection; let alone any personal connection/contact with those who I am supposedly “sending” to do missions for my church END QUOTE
I think this is the beauty of the CP, if we would do it right: give globally, serve locally.
Those who demand respect rarely get it, and may not deserve it. Those who gain respect seldom do so by simply attaining a certain age. Why not show some respect by engaging Tony and Ed’s arguments and earn some respect in the process? I think Ed’s point #3 and Tony’s #6 are valid. It may be something simpler however. The SBC is a big business meeting. How many people, especially young people, like going to business meetings? Yes, there is singing, yes there is preaching. But we can get that anywhere, and anytime. The fact is some important business needs… Read more »
@Bill: Great point. Very few people get excited about attending business meetings, even if they are helpful and good.
007: You said:”And, herein is some of the problem with a lot of the younger guys…total disrespect for the “older ones” of our SBC. I mean, anyone over the age of “40? is decomposing on stage? I guess? lol. So, are you saying that you dont like to hear anyone preach, who’s over the age of 40? or 50? or 60? I really sense a rebellious, young, disrespectful attitude in some of the younger people in the SBC right now. Not all of them, but in some of them. And, it’s almost like if you’re not Ed Stetzer, or into… Read more »
I was responding to Jonathan McLain’s comment…the very first comment made. Also, from my observation reading some of the younger guys in the blogs…listening to some of the things said at conferences, etc.
David
Tom,
How’s it going?
LTB does sound a whole lot like Tom Parker, dont he? 😉
Vol and Joe,
It is so easy ain’t it. I don’t think Ole Tom Parker realizes we were all three profilers in a former life. 🙂
This is an interesting example of our convention right now. You start a comment about why young people aren’t coming to convention and it turns into name calling. Some people are looking for an argument. Why has our differences separated us whether reformed or not, young, old, spirit filled, or not, prayer language or not. When did diversity in this country become a weakness. Silly Silly people
Jonathan,
It seems to me that YOU are the one, who got the ball rolling with the name calling….with the old preachers “decomposing” on stage comment. Also, you continue it with the name calling of “silly, silly people.”
David
I personally don’t think it’s the IMB that holds us together. I’m more of an NAMB guy myself. I think it’s our history with the denomination, but I don’t think that has to always be the case. We will lose the younger generation if we don’t wake up and smell the coffee.
If waking up and smelling the coffee means to abandon the doctrines and theology of the Bible, which is what the BFM2K is all about, then we need to “lose the young guys.” If the “young guys” really dont care about sound doctrine, then we’d be better off to “lose them.” To keep them wouldnt really be a good thing.
David
volfan,
It was good to meet you and your wife in Orlando brother. Concerning your comment, I do think the younger generation deeply cares about sound doctrine.
Benji,
It was a treat to meet you and your wife at Orlando. I’m glad we met in person.
Also, I do hope that what you’ve said about doctrine is true. Nothing would bless my heart and soul more.
David
Volfan,
Of course it is true- that is what the whole YRR movement is about. The reason why guys like John Piper, Driscoll, Chandler, and Keller are the most popular preachers in the country is because of how deeply theological they are. My generation flocks to these guys mainly because of doctrine.
For you to think my generation doesn’t care about doctrine shows that you might be completely ignorant of my generation.
Jonathan,
You said “I think it’s our history with the denomination….
When it comes to those who “grew up” in SB denomination, I do think that roots can play a part in them wanting to stay. However, those who have not grown up in the denomination do not have those roots, of course.
Matt, I’m talking about the comments made in here which seem to imply that the younger crowds could care less about the BFM2K, or that they dont really think about it. Matt, these doctrines are Biblical. The doctrines set forth in the BFM2K are what we’ve believed…as Baptist…that the Bible clearly teaches; and we’ve believed it for years and years and years. And then, I hear yall…and a few others out there…saying that it’s not important; or that it’s not really what attracts young people to the SBC; or that it doesnt really matter to the young crowd. And, those… Read more »
“And then, I hear yall…”
Shouldn’t that be “all y’all”? I thought “y’all” was singular…
🙂
Jeff,
Yall can be singular or plural down here in the South, Honey chile. It depends on the context, ya hear?
🙂
David
LOL Vol!
As long as you keep “mashing buttons” and I can get a Dr. Pepper at a restaurant by ordering it as a kind of “Coke”, my faith in the south remains strong!
Volfan,
I deleted your other comment because I already saw this one. We seem to be talking past each other so I just chose not to respond.
Okie dokie, Matt.
David
QUOTE We will lose the younger generation if we don’t wake up and smell the coffee. END QUOTE If it is only “coffee” keeping the young fellas in the game, I say, “Let ’em go.” Personally, I’ve not seen a person half my age that is doing even half of the ministry I do on a daily basis — and I’m not even a pacesetter among the “old fellas.” Hopefully, some of these young buck will get a bit of a whiff of the one, single virtue that is essential to Kingdom ministry — # 1 on the Beattitude chart… Read more »
I think all the “young” guys and all the “old” guys should get together and blame the Baby Boomers for all of our problems.
Stuart,
The “Baby Boomers” are the old guys.
Somebody already did
I just did a quick search through all the comments on this post. I can’t find anyone who has suggested abandoning the BFM. I certainly haven’t read anyone who has suggested abandoning the doctrines and theology of the bible.
Bill Mac, If you’ll look again you’ll see statements made about the IMB is what attracts young people in staying with the SBC, not the BFM2K. You’ll see statements to the effect of IMB and doing missions is what we young’un’s want, not the BFM2K. Well, the BFM2K is sound doctrine. It’s what the Bible teaches is essential to being a Christian, and what a Baptist kind of Christian is….based on the clear teachings of the Word of God. And, to say that it doesnt matter, or is not attractive to the young, or it’s not what we want to… Read more »
volfan,
I don’t think the BF&M 2000 is not attractive “at all” to the young leaders. I’m sure they appreciate its statements that affirm inerrancy, the fundamentals, Baptism–immersion–being for believers only [for example].
However, I do not think that confession is the “main attraction”. I think the IMB is.
David: Benji answered your comment. You are reading the comments about the BFM in the worst possible light and jumping to conclusions. Just because people don’t think the BFM is the greatest creation since the wheel doesn’t mean they don’t care about sound doctrine.
Benji, Bill Mac, and all,
I hope what your saying is true and right. Just keepin’ it real.
David
Bill,
That is exactly what Volfan is doing and he does it A LOT.
David, I think maybe i’ll try to defend the original intent of the BFM2k comment (from what I read it as). People (of all ages) join the convention to get involved in mission cooperatively. Which makes what the IMB (most people think “international” still when they hear “missions”) primarily but also NAMB and state conventions, associations the make-or-break thing for many. No one would join the SBC simply because they thought the BFM2000 was a great statement of faith. They may take that statement and use it themselves, but they’re not going to be part of the Convention just on… Read more »
Yo comprehendo, amigos.
sorry for the overload, David! when i started commenting, the other two above hadn’t replied yet, and I hit send and there were like three responses.
If the folks under 40 in particular knew the origins of the current SBC it’s birth 30 years ago and how far out to lunch Pressler and Patterson were/are with the statement on the history of the Book of Genesis as stated page 51 of the definitive work on Christianity thus far into the 21st Century, then I think they would be repulsed. And to the degree Ronnie Floyd continues to be the face of the SBC if they take it seriously they will back off. The luck of the SBC in the last 40 years people who have sense… Read more »
thanks for giving us the rambling off-topic comment we have come to expect from you, Steven. You clearly are passionate about the CR stuff, and you might want to consider using your own site to expound more on the evils of the CR rather than daily interrupting other conversations to do so.
shh…
It gets mind-numbing reading the back and forth between educated men and the constant hate and insults flying in from Volfan and Joe Blackmon that random posts by stephen are a welcome distraction of sorts.
Think of it as a commercial break.
Thanks Bill for a little Christian Hospitality. I thought Josh C liked some honest dissent but maybe he does not. If you read Mike Bergman and Jon McClain closely, I don’t think they are ready to be the exclusive fundamentalists Pressler and Patterson groomed the likes of Ronnie Floyd to be. And I would be interested to see what those two fellows said about the Inerrancy of Genesis in Light of MacCulloch’s findings on page 51 of the first thousand years of Chrisitianity. If you fear that discussion JoshC I don’t see too awful many 40 and under somethings staying… Read more »
i have no problem with a little honest dissent. I myself like to dissent plenty of times. the issue is that you have a 1-track mind which can take any conversation on this site and run straight for proclaiming your anti-CR agenda. In real life, if a group of people are talking about an issue and then someone interrupts to change the subject to one of their own choosing and giving everyone links to random articles about that topic, it would be considered sort of rude. I’m just saying that either choose to participate in the topics up for discussion… Read more »
Stephen: The young guys are not a bit interested in theories like that, espcially when there is no manifestation of them at conventions. To show you how things have turned, Dallas Willard (sp?) has a book (not sure which one) that a lot of young guys have read. In the beginning of the book there is a page that is completely unexplained, but it says something like this: “In those days, there were giants in the land…” and then it lists: Lee Roberson, John R. Rice and a host of other fundamentalist type Baptist preachers. Young guys would not have… Read more »
Louis: Another interesting reply. Hoping you can get your hands on Fisher H’s Lost Traditions chapter soon in the link I posted circa 41; and I remain convinced my Friend Randall Balmer, twice the Dotson Nelson lecturer at Baylor, lecturer at Furman, Mercer and Baylor may have a word for you in his latest book on the Evangelical experience in America from Revivalism to Politics. It is published by Baylor. We’ll continue to explore the matter; and once again Garry Wills is a great buy now at Barnes and Noble with his concluding chapters on the Rove era in American… Read more »
No problemo, Senor Josh
Tom Parker
Why all the angst and name calling against the younger fellas? They have every right to have a voice in the SBC right now.
Why dont you tell us, LTB (Tom). Dont worry, Tom, I wont tell anyone that you’re trying to hide behind this anonymous name.
DAvid 🙂
Tom Parker,
Don’t be silly. You are who you are. We know who you are. We know you now as one of us. We now know you as a real person. So stop being silly. Besides, you are just not really very good as the mysterious LTB. Another piece of advice Tom Parker, don’t take up a night job as Santa Claus. All the kids will know it is just Ole Triad Tom Parker.
What keeps “young leaders” from the SBC? I have no idea, because I’m “young” but not a “leader.” Here’s what keeps me: 1. Cost. I can’t pay the expense to get to the SBC, and I’m serving a church that doesn’t need to pay for it either. (I made it to Orlando because I have a grandfather in central Florida whose couch I slept on. No one in Phoenix, New Orleans, Nashville, or Baltimore, though.) Find a way to minimize the cost, either regional satelite locations or something. 2. Redundancy. The facts and figures are in a printed book. The… Read more »
Ok, wow, I was negative. Sorry about that. Here’s the one constructive thought I can muster: Relationship building opportunities. Not chances to be 1 listener in a crowd of 50 or 500 or 5000. A chance to be 1 in 10, talking with, listening to, and growing together with fellow followers of Christ, especially on the ministry side. Best times at the SBC were spent with a few new friends talking about where we were, what we were doing, and encouraging one another. And we haven’t spoken since, but there’s been a bit of email and such. But it was… Read more »
Doug,
I can assure you that Jimmy Jackson’s appointments would have differed from those of whom Bryant Wright will appoint.
Gotcha. I guess part of my problem comes from not really knowing any of the people that were nominated, except by the press releases of their nomination and the follow-up discussion of them on blogs. Which, sometimes, are not the world’s most accurate place.
Doug
I have followed this conversation off and on all day long. I am 35. I planted a church that I now pastor. My congregation’s average age is 29. We average just shy of 100 in attendance a Sunday and have been growing numerically for the past 18+ months. I planted with NAMB and am still affiliated with the state convention and the SBC. I am not “involved” in the SBC at least as far as meetings, conventions, etc go because I do not have time to take off of work to go to a meeting in some other part of… Read more »
Ryan,
Those last two paragraphs are powerful to me.
Benji is right… Ryan, those last two paragraphs are great.
I am sorry Ryan because you sound like a fine fellow, but I have to ask:
If you care for sound doctrine so much why are you reading or listening to Tony Campolo, and TD Jakes? Both of those guys have jumped the fence of sound orthodox theology long ago.
CB- Fair question. I would respond by directing you to Jaeks’ early preaching ministry when he worked through the passages in the Pentateuch on the architecture of the Taberncale and how it relates to what Jesus does in our lives. Some of the best application of what to me had previously been boring, irrelevant scripture. I do not have to agree with someone on everything to receive some value from their teaching. On the subject of Campolo, I do not agree with you that he hs abandoned orthodoxy. He preaches Jesus Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection as the only way… Read more »
Tony had a great sermon in San Antonio at Trinity Baptist I think it was the Sunday night before Criswell did his Skunk Sermon for the Pastor’s Conference; maybe his most glorious Hour since 56 before the Joint Session of the South Carolina Legislature. I have linked it before or you can google Criswell’s Fiery Sermon and Duke’s Curtis Freeman examination should come up footnotes and all.
But Tony had a packed house rockin with his Sermon titled
Four Whores in Honolulu.
Tony Cartledge no more abandoned orthodoxy than NT Wright or Fleming Rutledge,or Fisher Humphreys. See Fisher’s Chapter Lost Traditions I have linked in this thread. What all three abandoned like Mark Noll and ClarkPinnock is a use of Inerrancy as a tool to get hold of the SBC and bring it into the sphere of the Council for National Policy. See Garry Wills on that Subject in American Christianities. And again, see page 51 in MacCulloch’s Magisterial History of first 3,000 years of Christiantiy when in one paragraph of 1,000 pages he lays waste to Pressler’s defintion of Inerrancy as… Read more »
My error, I said Tony Cartledge but meant Tony Campolo.
Ithink Fisher Humphreys, Timothy George’s collleague at Samford is Orthodox as well.
Maybe you could get George to make a statement on Humphreys Orthodoxy.
Fisher chairs the board of Foy Valentine’s founded Journal, Christian Ethics Today.
Steve,
I knew you meant Campolo rather than Cartledge. Tony Cartledge is far less unorthodox than is Tony Campolo. 🙂
And if it makes you fell better, I think you are less unorthodox than Campolo also. 🙂 🙂
To bad he thinks it is ok to ignore the sin of homosexuality. Once again glad for the CR!!!
Ryan, I kinda thought you would respond to the Campolo question in the way most would relating to his position on the Sodomite lifestyle. He went away from orthodoxy long before his now infamous gay statements. I have read his books and listened to him preach, (on video and in person) otherwise I would not have made so bold a statement concerning his lack of sound theology. Also, I did not say one could learn nothing from Campolo. I responded to his name as you used it in context. I did respond to the entirety of your post. I said… Read more »
So When CB Did Tony Campolo Stray. Was it before 1998 because if it was before then somebody didn’t get the memo to the pastor of Church about four miles down from Jerry Vines West Rome BC, the pastor then a Trustee of Lifeway which I think you said you rotated on in 87; Lifeway or ONe Major Board; went from Rome to Upstate SC near Lyman or somewhere; Anyway somebody didn’t get the Memo to that SBC Takeover Insider cause he had him there for August Revival four week emphasis. I know,I was there and saw it with my… Read more »
Steve, Don’t let the lack of knowledge of Campolo make you look foolish among your peers today. I am going to give you just four exact quotes to help you with your absence of understanding here. I realize you had in an “August Revival” listening to him. But Steve, one August Revival does not a sound theology make. Campolo out of bounds: 1. “Beyond these models of reconciliation, a theology of mysticism provides some hope for common ground between Christianity and Islam. Both religions have within their histories examples of ecstatic union with God, which seem at odds with their… Read more »
CB- Now that’s the CB I expected. Thanks for being real. Couple of things.. First, I just included the first paragraph for context- as in I fit the context of the discussion as a younger guy who is pastoring in the SBC. I don’t base my observations on 18 months of growth but 6 years of hard labor and learning tough lessons about what really works in reaching people. (And the answer is not “methodology” but “theology” and “kneeology”. God has grown us not me.) Trust me, if I came across as prideful it was unintentional. I am a nobody,… Read more »
I love gumbo, but if someone gave me a big bowl of gumbo made just like my grandma used to make with the exception that it had a little bitty piece of dog poop in it, I’m not going to scoop out the dog poop and chow down on the rest of it. The whole bowl, no matter how good a bowl of gumbo it was, is now contaminated and worthless. No matter how good any of his other theology his or how impressive a preacher he might be, if he does not hold to the position that any sexual… Read more »
Joe: What other dog poop is on your list in addition to Sodomy? In your church do you pass out a questionnaire every Sunday morning and ask everybody to sign it that they didn’t fornicate on Saturday Night. How about tongue kissing for the 13 year old girls or the 17 or the 21 year olds? How about Gluttony? Have you asked Richard Land or John Bisagno about Gluttony lately? How about Football? Can a Baptist Deacon in your church worship football more than Jesus? Is that Dog Poop Theology? How about the deacon in your church or the ONe… Read more »
Steven
Can a person go to heaven apart from repentance from sin and faith in Jesus Christ alone?
Joe, Quit asking those tough questions about going to heaven—Sly Fox doesn’t like those type of questions. 🙂
Ryan,
I think the age thing is a strawman. Guys who are trying to obey Jesus can work together no matter the age difference.
I do think that in cooperation between Christians, Jesus must be the King and sound, biblical theology is the glue.
This whole idea of “bleeding young fellas” is rediculous. Young congregations are going to run into the same problems that churches like Saddleback ran into (is running into). It seems an axiom of life that the longer we are on this earth the “older” we get. If we are “bleeding young fellas” as suggested, I say, “goodbye” and may God bless you with eternal youth — otherwise there will come a time you will have to run yourself off with all the other “old people.” The biggest damage to the body of Christ in the last 20 to 25 years… Read more »
SSBN,
I actually think there is some merit in what you say here. I “hang out” with guys of all ages. And believe it or not a lot of young guys have a theological outlook about the same as I do.
I really think this old guy-young guy thing is a pop-gun war with no real basis for it. That is one reason I have just been raggin’ on you guys here. (The other reason I have been raggin’ on you guys here is because it is fun.)
SSBN- I agree with you that generational wars are counter-productive to the Gospel and to church health as a whole. I largely agree with you on where those wars started. Church growth replaced discipleship in the church lexicon long ago. I do not mention the average age of my congregation to brag, I seek out older believers all the time to disciple our young adult converts. I am generally rejected out of hand because our music is “different,” our preaching is “too long,” and I do not preach about “political” issues. When we first started, I was roundly criticized for… Read more »
Good words. Keep at it.
Well said, Ryan. BTW, I have learned more from people and books with whom I disagree that those I agree with. Why? When I read something I agree with, it affirms me, but unless it is said in a really pithy, catching way, it’s like water off a duck’s back. But when I read something I disagree with, it forces me to dig deep, and examine whether my beliefs and opinions are valid, or just, as the Quakers used to call them, “notions.”
John
Mr. Scott, Mr Blackmon and Mr.007:
Why is my identity so important to you all?
On this blog topic there is a SSBN, Bess, Bill, and a Louis. Are you three losing sleep over their identities?
Please find something else to be so concerned about.
It’s of no concern whatsoever. We just think it’s funny that anyone who has read what you write and how you write can spot you a mile away. It’d be like me trying to come on here and be nice to moderates…no one would take that seriously. Further, we want you to know that we know who you are since you’re going to all the trouble of trying to fashion a nom-de-plum. A Bruce Wayne you ain’t. Of course, since your two hero’s of the faith fancy themselves to be a Don Quizote and Lois Lane i could see you… Read more »
JoeB: Was it you or Volfan 007 who had the family wedding couple weeks ago.
All this reminds me of the statement former Associate Editor of the Alabama Baptist said about Judge Pressler’s definition of Cooperation:
“I’ll Operate and You Cope!!!”
And Was it Don Quizote or Don Chipotle??
Tom Parker, How do you know those folks are not known to us also? Tom, the problem with you is you ask a lot of personal questions of people. You made insane accusations against people. You attacked almost everyone of a differing ideology that you have been taught by Debbie or Wade. You have been bitter. You ask questions but refused to answer questions. You presented yourself as some elite person above others. You have tried to promote yourself as involved in things I know good and well you have no knowledge of other than what you were told by… Read more »
If Wade taught Debbie and Tom; who taught CB, Volfan Double Knot and JoeB?
In the Voice of the SNL Church Lady:
Was it Judge Pressler?????
CB Scott:
I really believe there are bigger issues than my identity, so please move on.
CB:
Good night and good luck.
Goodnight John Boy. Goodnight Mary Ellen……….” You know the rest, right Tom?
Tom, When exactly did you become dysfunctional relating to your birth name? Were there early warning signs or did it just come upon you all of a sudden? Are you seriously going to sit there in front of that computer and say LTB is not Tom Parker of NC? A blind monkey could read your comments and know who you are Tom. Tom, lying is lying. Lying on a blog is still a lie just as it is in person. You are who you are. You may not like that, but you have to live with it. We all live… Read more »
C.B. are you feeling all right?
I fell just capital L’s, just capital.
How about you?
Glad to hear you are well.
God keep you in His Peace.
L’s,
I am curious. Did you read through the comment thread on Tony’s child abuse post? If you did, I think you would be willing to agree that the comments give evidence that many of these guys are very concerned about child abuse in Baptist life and desire to see some constructive action take place to protect the children God has placed in our watch.
Anyway, I hope you see that to be the case.
Of course she doesn’t, cb. You know Cough-man and Christa Brown are the only two people who really care about all the evil that Paige Patterson has perpetrated on chidlren in the SBC since, as you well know, every child molestation is his fault. If onlly we had a national database like the Catholic Church then no child would ever get molested. I mean, that sort of thing NEVER happens in the Catholic Church.
[/sarcasm]
Joe,
She is silent is she not?
I do not feel I asked her an unfair question in any way. Maybe you are right. Who knows?
Um, I’m confused. I’m not saying you asked her an unfair question. My comment was making fun of the fact that she believes that only Cough-man and Christa really care and that people like us don’t care.
I was agreeing with you whilst mocking her position. 🙂
Joe,
Don’t be confused. My point was that the question I asked of her did not seem unfair to me. But she refused to answer. I was saying you are probably right. Her only interest seems to be to attack SBC leaders she does not like. Maybe she just used the child abuse thing as a springboard.
Just for the sake of full disclosure and to ease Tom’s mind that you are not playing favorites, CB . . . I don’t have a middle name. So the Navy gave me one: nmn. It had to be all lower case.
Now, you may be wondering how this applies . . .
SSBN,
I think I know you. Not as well as I do my good friend Tom 🙂 🙂 But I think we have met before in some conference or meeting of some kind.
CB, I doubt it. I’ve never been to a National Convention in 32 years of ministry and I seldom go to State meetings, and our Association seldom has meetings.
Please do not get me wrong . . . I’m not sure I would admit to knowing you even if we did meet 🙂
PS — I do plan to go to the Convention in Phoenix this year. I’d be happy to buy you lunch (not an $8 convention burger) if you go.
SSBN,
If you feel safe to answer, why does your association seldom have meetings? Secondly, of the meetings they do have, are they of a productive nature or just “meetings”?
CB, nothing particularly eventful. We are in So. Cal. and it is just a very pagan environment, so we don’t have many churches in our association and none of any size. For example, I’m in a town of 128000 and I’m the only SBC church. So, we are few and far apart. Also, many conservatives in California are just tired of the moderate ideas and bloated beauracracy. In my opinion, the California State Convention and many (but certainly not all) associations are parasitic, rather than prophetic. My current church was one of the primary churches in the CR in California… Read more »
SSBN,
I was afraid you would say, “many (but certainly not all) associations are parasitic, rather than prophetic.”
I know that is so often the case. There are some folks at NAMB trying to change that. I work with them often. Maybe we can talk someday.
Back to the post. As I have a 26 and 20 year old kids, who were raised in very conservative churches and attended Christian schools, and have also talked w a couple Bsu folks, this generation of kids is very intersesting and I think it also applies to younger seminary graduates. They are less dogmatic, have a view on women and gays that is much more driven by the media, they drink alcohol, hate cigarettes and are more ” tolerant”. They are more family oriented and while still materialistic are more likely to be single income and home school. They… Read more »
Ryan, I agree wholeheartedly with your statement about the Bible meaning more than tradition. The Bible should be read, believed, and practiced by all of us. That’s why the “man made” document came about…to set forth basic beliefs about the Bible that we Baptists hold to be clearly taught. That’s what the “man made” document is all about… the Bible. So, yea, us “old” guys love the Word of God, and we love believing it, and we love practicing it; even though we fall short way too much. Thankful for God’s grace and mercy, I am. But, us “old” guys… Read more »
David- I agree with you that many “old” guys love the Bible. I have been exposed to a lot of them. In fact, they are largely responsible for my love the Bible. You and I part ways at the need for someone to “set forth basic beliefs about the Bible that we Baptists hold to be clearly taught.” Those are your words. In the Hebrew rabbinic tradition, that was called “midrash.” The problem with midrash is it can take the place of the intention of the scriptures. That is my concern with what several have written on this board, you… Read more »
Ryan,
One thing, when you said, “Basically, you are saying that anyone who disagrees with the BF&M2K is a heretic or is on their way to heresy;” there’s only one problem with that statement. I didnt say that. I do think that anyone disagreeing with the BFM2K is in error, but they’re not all heretics. For example, Assembly of God Believers would not agree with the BFM2K. I still consider them as my Brothers and Sisters in the faith, although I do believe that they’re in error in their doctrine on certain, minor points of theology.
But, heretics? no.
David
David,
That’s a nice piece of theological triage there! I didn’t know BI guys were allowed to do that. (remembering some discussions from long ago…)
Josh,
You must have really misunderstood the conversation. I dont know of any BI guy that would not consider a Presbyterian, or an Assembly of God, or a Methodist Believer a Brother in Christ. Are they in error in their doctrine? Yes. But, if they’re a Believer in the Lord Jesus, then they’re saved…no matter what flavor of Christianity they are.
David
If I understood the disagreement proper, it was more over what would constitute 2nd-3rd tier issues in triage, but I remember a few statements that seemed to call into question the whole concept. I mostly made the above point in jest because I thought your explanation was well put.
Ryan: I hope you will scroll back up to my link in comment 41 or therabouts, the Lost Traditions of Baptists in the WAke of The Takeover, or the CR as some call it. Humphreys; author of this fine work with a grand index to the BX 6400’s on page ten as many on this board know, had one of the most thoroughgoing and straightforward interviews with Judge Pressler. I went to the trouble to tinyurl it for all yall. Ryan I do think you will find itn quite valuable and others as well. May be a new plateau to… Read more »
CB, great post on Campolo’s drift into the netherworld of sociotheology. What a shame because he is a great communicator. As you point out — anyone who agrees with his theology is definitely a liberal or even a non-believer. If Fox in anyway agrees with Campolo, I have greatly misinterpreted where he stands in regard to Christianity.
You can’t even be a “moderate” and not defend the gospel against Campolo.
Bottom line…Foxy loxy is not a Christian. He doesn’t believe in salvation exclusively through Christ. Or more specifically, he doesn’t believe that you personally have to believe in Christ to be saved. In other words, Muslims worship Alla but what they don’t realize is that Christ is saving them.
Joe, a few weeks ago I would argue with you in regard to Fox. Once someone defends the obvious heresy of Campolo (in spite of his obvious charismatic appeal), it does make you wonder.
I guess my “old” (pun intended) professor was right: “If you stand for nothing, you’ll fall for anything.”
Fall for anything, just like all those poor folks the SBC takeover artists demaggogged into taking a bus ride into the Conventions and getting that magic 51 percent. Read what Russell Dilday said in his press conference in San Antonio in Hefley’s Volume Four. He nailed it. Inerrancy is a Ruse and Pressler pulled a big one over. Again, see page 51 of MacCulloch. Joe, I doubt you are a Christian as well. What do you know about Will Campbell’s theology in re illegitimacy. I’m starting to think you may be exhibit A of his colorfully termed template on who… Read more »
Hey Joe Blackmon how’s that Taliban thing working for you.
Now tell us truthfully,don’t you see a good bit of yourself in the mentality. When you lay down at night, in your gut don’t you wish stoning was back in fashion and you could do the rockin.
Here is a link for your weekend devotions:
http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=365
this post was up at #87, but I feel led of the Lord to put it down here: 87 SSBN August 19, 2010 at 12:58 pm QUOTE We will lose the younger generation if we don’t wake up and smell the coffee. END QUOTE If it is only “coffee” keeping the young fellas in the game, I say, “Let ‘em go.” Personally, I’ve not seen a person half my age that is doing even half of the ministry I do on a daily basis — and I’m not even a pacesetter among the “old fellas.” Hopefully, some of these young… Read more »
The humility street works a lot of ways, up and down the Avenue.
SSBN can you tell us where Ronnie Floyd, for instance, has done the Beatitudinal Humility thing lately.
Stephen, Care to answer Joe’s question?
Don’t know anything about Ronnie Floyd–barely even know of his existence.
I think you might want to question the theological basis for making mortal men the basis for Christian virtue. Just my “humble” opinion 🙂
Since I’m three years away from the big “6” “0” … I guess I’m one of the older guys in the SBC. The SBC has always given leadership status to leaders who have earned it. They didn’t sit around in their underwear blogging in their dorm room — most of the time. I was the Director of Missions in Pittsburgh, Pa … when Ed Stetzer was up in Erie planting a growing church that planted other growing churches in his region. I saw and heard of his work when he was starting out. Ed studied hard, worked hard, and pushed… Read more »
Stephen: I tried to read Dr. Humprheys’ book, the chapter you mentioned, but it does not come up. 2 facts related to that. I saw Dr. Humphreys at a forum discussion in 1985 related to the SBC. He appeared to be a nice person, but at the time he was a moderate apologist. I remember some comments about “parity”, the idea that seminary faculties might have an equal number of conservatives and liberals, neoorthodox or whatever name they wish to use. Dr. Humphreys was good friends with Richard Land many years ago, and was in his wedding, I believe. I… Read more »
Oh no! And we must not have any blogging five pointers! Come on David. Get a grip here. It’s not a matter of fame, it’s a matter of who the young think is Biblical. You act like they don’t have a brain, and are not into the Bible. Yet it’s the young that are getting into the Bible, digging like crazy, and finding out there is more in there than they had been told. And I’m not talking about five pointers, but Calvinists and non-Calvinist. I find them to be more Biblical in their preaching than many preachers I have… Read more »
Debbie, You have flown the coop again. It’s as if you read what someone writes, and you read it the way you want to see it, instead of the way it was written. So, what???? what in the world are you talking about? Debbie, I never said anything about 5 pointers shouldnt blog. I just made the comment that a lot of them seem to be in the blogs. And, the fame and Biblical and the young thing? I really dont know what you’re trying to say with this? Of course, Debbie, the young Believers, and young Pastors can dig… Read more »
David
You should know by now Cough-man doesn’t think. She feels. I mean, she brags about her training as a researcher in high school and ju-co English classes. 😛 What a joke!! She doesn’t believe in logic or reasoning…or reading for that matter.
Debbie,
I fully agree that we should have “5 point bloggers” to balance off the pointless ones.
“Yet it’s the young that are getting into the Bible, digging like crazy, and finding out there is more in there than they had been told.” So Debbie, I guess it is now wrong just to “turn” to a particular Book in the Bible and study it with eager anticipation? Now I need to “get into the Bible” and “dig like crazy”? Debbie, exactly how “big” is the Bible you own? To tell you the truth, I don’t have one big enough “get into and dig like crazy.” And if I did, would it not be easier and more efficient… Read more »
QUOTE That is a pretty arrogant statement, END QUOTE
In order for a statement to be arrogant it must first be a statement. Could you give the exact quote where David or anyone else made the statement you call an “arrogant statement?”
Or, perhaps an apology for overstatement would be easier.
QUOTE They didn’t sit around in their underwear blogging in their dorm room END QUOTE
Don’t you just hate it when someone puts an image in your head you wish just wasn’t there? 🙂
“60!” That’s not old, that’s fossilized 🙂
Joe
once again, for someone who brags about being an innerantist you once again seem to have stopped your Bible reading before you got to the sermon on the mount…..
Jim,
Do I get credit for referring to the #1 Beattitude? 🙂 I’m proud to have made that post.
SS – I missed that! You absolutely get credit! There is also some quote of Jesus to be doers of the word, does that apply to blogs as well?
I have too much pride to attempt an answer to that question 🙂
Jim Champion #168 What is “BI” as in ” BI wing will take over the SBC”
Jack,
Us’uns is BI and we done got it. 🙂
Jim, the idea that BI is going to “take over” is really contrary to any evidence that is out there. The nearly unanimous BI candidate for president this year didn’t even make it into the runoff.
I think that it is more likely that the SBC will move the in opposite direction, perhaps too much so.
Still haven’t heard what B I stands for unless that’s part of a secret Presbyterian pledge and then I don’t want to know.
Jack,
BI stands for Baptist Identity.
Volfie is the resident BIer with a bit of a second by CB, but he is too mean to fall into anyone’s camp, and a bit too independent as well. The BI wing wants things to revert back to the 50s day and age of sbc life when men were men and women were June Cleaver They stand on doctrine plus old time sbc legalism. No alcohol, no women deacons, closed or close Lords Supper, proper baptiser for a baptism to be recognized, young earth creationism. For a good look at who they are and how they believe you can… Read more »
Jim,
You obviously have no idea what a BI guy is. Your “comment” above shows a real lack of knowledge of who we are and what we stand for.
David
Jim: I understand that the BI guys are really into Baptist Distinctives such as not accepting alien immersions (Baptisms in a non-Baptist Church), closed communion, and being intentionally and distinctively Baptist. They share that last point with CBF crowd, I believe, as I see what Dr. Leonard and others write. “Being Baptist” is one of their slogans. Kind of like what Foy Valentine, a famous moderate, said of the word “Evangelical.” Dr. Valentine said that was a Yankee word and that he would not use it to describe himself or other people in the SBC. Though let me hasten to… Read more »
Louis: I’m not sure all BI guys would accept your definition. As we can see, they do not accept Jim’s definition, although I suspect that most BI guys do believe the things Jim (sarcastically) presented. (not about the 50s and June Cleaver) But it does present an interesting question, and one that is perhaps not too far outside the boundaries of this post to be discussed. Does holding to the doctrines outlined in the BFM make one Baptist enough? My impression is that the BI movement wants to make being Baptist something narrower than what the BFM prescribes, but I’d… Read more »
Bill Mac: Great pick ups. Forgot to mention Calvinism. That is a big one for the BI guys. I guess I forgot about that because I am just finishing the biography of James P. Boyce, founder of Southern Seminary. He was very Baptist. Baptist as it gets. But he was a Calvinist. Great pick up on the elder thing, too. I really don’t understand the objection to a plurality of leadership. If a church has 2 co-pastors (e.g. Vines and Lindsay), how is that different from a pastor who is and elder serving with lay elders? Good thoughts. I believe… Read more »
Louis and Bill Mac,
Scott Gordon and Les Puryear are 5 point Calvinists.
David
David: I understand that BI is not a monolithic group with entirely uniform ideas. And Les is one of those leading the charge against reformed Baptists in the SBC (go figure). He is also the one who suggested that elder-led congregations are not in compliance with the BFM. He also claims that reformed pastors do not invite people to come to Christ in their worship services.
Actually, I’m not BI and I don’t believe the CR went far enough. If it had, you, Stev, BDW, the guys at BL forums, and Gene Scarborough would have muzzled it a long time ago.
Or they would have gotten louder. 🙂
Debbie,
Seven hundred and twenty-eight. Or seven hundred and fifty-seven.
Part of my previous comment got cut off. It should have read:
I’ll bet you money they wouldn’t. Seven hundred and twenty-eight. Or seven hundred and fifty-seven.
Taliban Joe: I bet you ain’t nobody at your church has a reading comprehension past the 8th grade. God Loves em cause the Bible says he does and I have a lot of affection sight unseen for em too for all the suffering they endure puttin up with you. I just think don’t think you read very much; in fact I think you said you don’t have time for it. But you sure have alot of time telling me and Gene Scarborough we’re going to Hell. Somehow I think you missed the point of the Gospel. Stoning folks, you sure… Read more »
Not being CBF myself if I were to describe them I would say they do have some commonalities w the BI boys and would say they are more Baptistic than the BI boys in things like priesthood if the believer, separation of church and state and autonomy of the local church. Their big distinction is the rejection of the creed as an instrument of doctrinal accountability that BIers wave around like a club. My biggest concern with BI is that they raise every level of what they consider doctrine to tier I status. Their extra biblical stances serve to exclude,… Read more »
Love your consistency Joe, have you gotten to Matthew yet?
Champion has a great question for you JOe? Has your Christian Walk gotten you to Matthew yet,or are you still stuck in Leviticus?
Are you and the wife and children gonna rent The Stoning of Sayonara M this weekend or have you already seen it during August Revival meetin time?
Louis, I believe you may have BI mixed up with Landmark Baptists. Most of the BI guys I know, including me, would accept baptisms from non-Baptist churches, IF they’re Scriptural baptisms. If the Church believes that salvation by grace thru faith, and if it believes in Believers baptism by immersion; then that’s a true, Biblical, Scriptural baptism. And, yea, you’re right about denominational employees needing to agree with the BFM2K…in the least. We’re not big on the name “Baptist” being on the sign in front of your church, although…IMHO…your people should know that you’re a part of the SBC, or… Read more »
Jim, Once again, you show a real ignorance of what the BI guys truly believe. Every doctrine is not raised to a first tier level. BI guys would believe that Assembly of God Believers are saved, but just in error over eternal security and tongue speaking and a few other doctrines. But, I do not know of any BI guy who would say that an AOG Believer was lost just because he didnt believe in eteranl security of the Believer. You might really want to rethink what you think about the so called BI guys. You seem to have a… Read more »
DoubleKnot Vol Fan David: You got a big problem with that inerrancy thing, you know. It won’t scour. And if you cared to learn something about Darwin instead of pontificating your ignorance on the matter; Marilynne Robinson, a fine Christian woman is ready when you are. In the meantime here is your problem with the History of the Book of Genesis: “Altogether the chronology of the Book of Genesis does not add up as a historical narrative when it is placed in a reliably historical context.” Page 51 from the most definitive book of the first 3,000 years of Christianity… Read more »
Well, since you’re not a Christian it wouldn’t “scour” with you, Steven.
I think Wade Burleson and lot of other great Christians are start to have serious questions about whether you are a Christian or not, Taliban Joe.
David Rogers, Adrian’s Son? Have you asked him lately about his reservations about how you are representing Jesus in public?
How about your wife and children and your Mother; are they Christians Joe? Do they have to get your permission to talk about it? How does it work among your loved ones, this Christian thing, your bent on it?
Wade Burleson is a left wing nut job.
David Rodgers has every right to think anything he wants. His opinions are his own and he can share them or not at his leisure.
Now, the reason you are not a Christian is because you don’t believe that salvation is found solely by faith in Jesus Christ and repentance from sin. You believe that a Muslim’s faith in Islam can get them to heaven. Therefore, you don’t understand the biblical gospel so there is no way you could have believed it.
Matthew 22:36-40 (New International Version)
36″Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37Jesus replied: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Stephen: May I give you some advice, as respectfully as I can? I think you are often treated rather badly on these blogs by people who should know better. But I must say you paint a big red target on yourself most times that you post. I know you are thought of as a liberal by many here and not even a Christian by at least one. I honestly don’t know how you would identify yourself. This is largely because you never post any of your own thoughts or ideas. Nearly every time you enter a blog comment you are… Read more »
DoubleKnot and Taliban Joe have a glorious History in America. I can easily visualize them in the mob that lynched Leo Frank. In fact the fellow that stomped Frank when he was cut down in Marietta Georgia had a famous name that escapes me at the moment. The Harrowing tale in spun out in Steve Oney’s 450 page history of a few years ago, the last book reviewed in the NY Times by the Baptist Preacher’s son, Marshall Frady, the grandest social justice journalist of the last half of the 20th Century. Bill Mac, thanks for the advice. I have… Read more »
Steve, How long will you hide from Joe’s question?
Jefty:
I don’t think Joe is a Christian cause I see no evidence on this board. He can’t think, he don’t read why should I waste my time.
I got a question for you, Jefty.
Do you believe in inerrancy, or do you believe in Jesus?
Later I will link for you a picture of Will Campbell and ask where was Judge Pressler?
Well, again, considering that you believe a muslim can call on Allah and be saved by their Islamic faith, wha you believe about someone else really doesn’t matter too much.
Joe, You and Jefty and DoubleKnot believe in Stonin, don’t you cause I ain’t never heard you say you don’t.
How many folks do you know think that Stoners are Christians and if you don’t know any then you must not be one, a Christian that is; Or am I missin somethin in your logistics here.
Steve, You are on a roll tonight. 🙂 Do you think Frank was guilty of the rape and murder of a 13-14 year old girl? It also has been said that he had a great hatred for Black people. Did he get justice? Who knows. But I really don’t think you should relate Joe or Vol to the guys who hung Franks. And I certainly do not think you should identify yourself with the like of Leo Franks whether he was guilty of the girl’s murder or not. He was not a very savory guy. BTW, the name of the… Read more »
Only one slight problem with your logic….it is common among moderates to claim that all religions lead to heaven and to suggest that proclaiming salvation as exclusively found in the gospel of Chirst is hateful and narrow minded. You’re going to be hard pressed to point to any evidence that conservative Christians believe in stoning. Again, is salvation exclusively found by faith in Jesus Christ and repentance from sin? “Yes” or “No”. A real Christian wouldn’t hesitate for a second to answer and their answer would be “yes”. A real man would at least answer the question. Of course, since… Read more »
Joe and CB: First Joe; I don’t think your religion leads to heaven. I do think the Christian religion rightly understood and practiced by faith leads to heaven. I think you miss the point; but I am not the final judge of you either. I honestly think you got some serious flaws with your orthopraxy; easily more than David Dockery and he’s a little screwwed up too. I do wish you had gotten the point I was trying to make about Will Campbell theology of who is a bastard and who isn’t; but apparently it went over your head as… Read more »
Steve, The Steve Oney book presents in its conclusions that Frank was innocent. Other writers contend Frank to be guilty. The case is interesting to me due to the fact that the town’s folks sided with Jim Conley, a Black man, who testified Frank, a Jew, killed Phagan. The actions of all involved do not make a real condemnation of any “fundamentalism” relating to Christianity such as you suggest and then make the effort to tie the Christian faith of Joe and Vol. The murder of Mary Phagan and the trial and lynching of Leo Frank along with the grandstanding… Read more »
BTW Steve,
Do you think the Larry McDonald you mentioned was killed by the Soviets? Maybe we can talk about that one day. 🙂
In response to CB on Leo Frank. My Criswell analogy in the Frank case is to Tom Watson, who was as things played out, one of the larger characters in the big picture of the story. There is a very interesting discussion of the Cordova Mosque at bl.com. Great discussion tonight on PBS Newshour between Bush 43 former speechwriter Gerson and the regular Friday night news of the week analyst. They talk about the KKK as proper analogy to Al Qaeda when comparing terrorist wings of Christendom to Terrorist wings of Muslim faith. In that world this week Newt Gingrich… Read more »
Steve, I may not be correct here, but I don’ think Watson was ever in the Klan. He just called for its “reappearance” during the Franks trial in a grandstand play. Did he not later speak against the Klan when it suited his purpose to do so? Watson was a strange bird for a Southerner anyway. He went back and forth on issues all the time as a politician. Did he even claim to be a Christian, much less a fundamentalist Christian at that? Criswell held no similarity to Watson. And frankly, I don’t think Gingrich does either. How do… Read more »
I ain’t skeered. Far from it.
Let me just say that every BI guy I have met is a guy I like and greatly admire. They are stand up guys to the last man. They love Jesus. They love their families. They love the Word of God and believe it to be true in every possible way. They love the saints of God. They study theology as if everything they do depends on their understanding of it. They are true guardians of the biblical doctrine of ecclesiology and they have a better grasp of it than most because they hold it extremely dear as a biblical… Read more »
CB
you almost never fail to bring a smile to my face, even when you are dead wrong…
Jim,
One out of two ain’t always bad. It always depends on the odds against you in the original venture. 🙂
Now tell me Jim, how am I “dead wrong” here? I trotted out several ideas. Are they all wrong?
CB,
a bit of humor, I have been in disagreement with you very little on this thread. Our basic disagreement has always been over the need for the CR, however your perspective has been from the southeast, mine from the southwest. I do agree that southern and sebts had true liberal proffs that needed to b dealt with. Not so much at swbts. Like fox I think innerrancy was used as a political club
Jim,
Always remember I never called Dr. Dilday a liberal or even a moderate. And I realize that perspective counts for a lot. The SBC was and is a big place.
I was in VA and KY. You were in TX if I remember. During those years, those places were as different worlds as far as the SBC was concerned.
But I still believe the Battle for the Bible was a necessary fight.
CB, just for the record, Dilday has referred to himself as a “moderate.” As to SWBTS having “liberal” professors — that’s a tough call. I think it was by far one of our strongest seminaries, but I did see a couple professors during my time there that had some “suspicious” ideas.
Within just a couple of months of Dilday’s departure, a flood of professors resigned, so any “potential” problems were probably eliminated early on.
Replying to SSBN on Dilday. There is a way to read Russell Moore’s tribute to Clark Pinnock and come to the conclusion the man Mohler’s assistant praises for Discipling Jerry Vines, Patterson and Adrian Rogers at NOBTS, came to a place not unlike Russell Dilday on Pilgrimage. As early as 87 Pinnock said forthrightly his former students Vines, Rogers and Paige missed the point. Like Dilday Clark Pinnock was on Pilgrimmage using his Priesthood of the Believer to evolve, Pilgrim out of the narrow confines of the Sunday School Class led by the likes of Paul Pressler where Pressler felt… Read more »
SSBN,
I know that. I was just saying to Jim that I had never called him one. And SSBN, I still don’t. But I do place Lloyd Elder’s train wreck as president of the BSSB squarely at Russell Dilday’s feet.
Steve,
You know and I know and so do most other people from around then on both sides of the CR that Paul Pressler did not go to Baylor and tell Jack Flanders he better quit thinking like Clark Pinnock; “cause everything there was to know Judge Pressler already knew in his Junior Boys Sunday School class.”
David:
Thanks for the clarification. I did not buy the part about the 1950s, anyway. Interestingly, though, that is the era a lot of moderates yearn for. No agreement on theology. Just agreement on program.
Ok, is anyone else seeing that on this post the top of Internet Explorer says “The SBC Smells Like Your Grandma’s Socks” or is it just me?
I noticed that, but didn’t want to mention it.
More ‘rowdiness’ in action. I would be ashamed of myself if I were a little wiser.
Yeah. I thought it was pretty funny.
Well, at least I know I’m not needing new glasses.
OK, let me see if I have this right. Ed, your faint praise aside for us old folks, it sounds to me like you, ‘younger folks’, can’t wait for us, ‘old folks’ to get off the stage! It may be ‘vailed’ to some, but, having done a lot of research on this, (correct me if I’m wrong), but, you being an ‘ex board member’ of Acts 29 ( a church planting org.), would like nothing better than to bring that group ‘on-board’ and, have them ‘under the umbrella of the SBC, or in other words ‘fully funded’ one day. Right… Read more »
Well, it seems that Mr. A. Price has walked right out in the street in front of everyone and proposed a discussion loaded with possibilities.
It could be interesting to see how it plays out, if, that is, there are any with the same degree of boldness to engage him.
BI also stands for Business Intelligence, in case anyone cares (I know, another work type thing). 🙂
QUOTE are you still stuck in Leviticus? END QUOTE Someone above (Bill Mac, I believe) sought to get an idea of what another blogger really believes. I think the above quote should answer the question without much doubt. Some of the Bible is “more Bible” than other parts for a moderate leaning to the liberal side or an out and out liberal. The above quote, and many like it, were heard often and loudly in SBC seminaries in the 70’s and 80’s, and into the early 90’s. I have more respect for baloney than I do the “Moderates Bible.” At… Read more »
SSBN, I do hope you find that paragraph on page 51 of Christianity to help you get a clue about inerrancy.
I think it is old news to you that Charles Kimball’s When Religion Becomes Evil can help you out of the Fog a little on these matters; but then again you seem to have strong affection for the Fog.
I am so thankful for an unnamed old coot who recommends title after title for reading. It saves me from picking up something that will waste my time.
Thank God this person never recommends reading the Bible. You know that Book is great when it never gets on the recommended reading list of the unnamed theocrat.